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> could never articulate a reason for why their two 2U servers needed to be in AWS at ~3x the price specifically, to dis-empower you and others in your guilds

> could never articulate a reason for why their two 2U servers needed to be in AWS at ~3x the price specifically, to dis-empower you and others in your guilds ? AWS will turn on and turn off with no labor negotiations, at a known market price. Admins and devs are competition to the decision makers and an unknown entity, asking market prices or more. This is predictable and it is playing out now.

stego-tech 1y ago
I mean, I know all that now; it's what kicked off my descent into the politics and ideologies I hold near and dear to me now, and revitalized my interest in technology as a means of helping humans instead of amplifying Capital. My point was, financially and logically, it made (makes) no sense. It's penny-wise and pound foolish, given how (relatively) inexpensive a VMware, Xen, or Hyper-V admin is nowadays compared to anyone with AWS, Azure, or GCP credentials.
- mistrial9 1y ago
  yes I agree, more than I can say in a short post
- mlinhares 1y ago
  China is proof of that with their own universe of cloud services, there's no reason Europe can't be competitive the same way, the talent is there, it needs capital and government push.
  - tonyhart7 1y ago
    China is one huge economy that centrally planned + strive for sustainable themselves is not easy to achieve for EU
  - slaw 1y ago
    China software industry is 10 times size of Europe. It is easier when you are big.
    - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
      It is now, yes. Would it be if the great firewall didn't exist, though?
      - mlinhares 1y ago
        Still best for them if they develop their own industry.
- znpy 1y ago
  > My point was, financially and logically, it made (makes) no sense. You don't know, but you proved your customer's point, unwillingly. The thing is, your logic is flawed because it's (incredibly) shortsighted. > VMware, Xen, or Hyper-V admin Those three things essentially do the same thing, yet they're completely different beasts. You have to look for people knowledgeable on that specific product, and you might not find them. When dealing with AWS EC2 instances? A lot more people with standardized competencies. For companies it's just great because they can hire from a much larger pool of candidates. It's great for workers too, because they can pick my skills and go work at another company where I'll be immediately productive, meaning they'll have a much smoother onboarding process (learning the business domain rather than fighting the technology).
  - watermelon0 1y ago
    Same applies for clouds, each is a completely different beast. You have AWS EC2, GCE, Azure VM, and others. The main difference between cloud vs on-prem/colo/dedicated is that you need SRE/DevOps for the first, and sysadmins for the second.
  - immibis 1y ago
    > VMware, Xen, or Hyper-V admin What happened to the idea of just running a program on a machine? Or Kubernetes. Everyone loves Kubernetes, why not use it?
immibis 1y ago
AWS is also hard to administer. Sure you don't have to deal with physical hardware, but you don't at Hetzner, either.
- ranger_danger 1y ago
  I have never had any issues with AWS, and I don't know anyone else that has either. I'm sure some might consider it difficult, but I don't think that the vast majority do, and I don't consider that enough of a reason to blanket state that it's hard for everyone... otherwise they wouldn't be using it anyway.
  - immibis 1y ago
    Are you using it for virtual servers or for all their serverless stuff? I've never had any issues with real servers, either. Not even a hard drive failure (touch wood). I'm sure some might consider servers difficult, but [the rest of your comment]
freeone3000 1y ago
You still need an admin for AWS. It doesn’t actually abstract anything about services or workloads; it’s not Heroku.
yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
Er, so now you're on AWS and instead of paying a sysadmin to run things, you pay a DevOps Engineer™ to run things. Just because it's in The Cloud doesn't magically remove the need to manage it.

stego-tech 1y ago

I mean, I know all that now; it's what kicked off my descent into the politics and ideologies I hold near and dear to me now, and revitalized my interest in technology as a means of helping humans instead of amplifying Capital. My point was, financially and logically, it made (makes) no sense. It's penny-wise and pound foolish, given how (relatively) inexpensive a VMware, Xen, or Hyper-V admin is nowadays compared to anyone with AWS, Azure, or GCP credentials.

mistrial9 1y ago
yes I agree, more than I can say in a short post
mlinhares 1y ago
China is proof of that with their own universe of cloud services, there's no reason Europe can't be competitive the same way, the talent is there, it needs capital and government push.
- tonyhart7 1y ago
  China is one huge economy that centrally planned + strive for sustainable themselves is not easy to achieve for EU
- slaw 1y ago
  China software industry is 10 times size of Europe. It is easier when you are big.
  - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
    It is now, yes. Would it be if the great firewall didn't exist, though?
    - mlinhares 1y ago
      Still best for them if they develop their own industry.
znpy 1y ago
> My point was, financially and logically, it made (makes) no sense. You don't know, but you proved your customer's point, unwillingly. The thing is, your logic is flawed because it's (incredibly) shortsighted. > VMware, Xen, or Hyper-V admin Those three things essentially do the same thing, yet they're completely different beasts. You have to look for people knowledgeable on that specific product, and you might not find them. When dealing with AWS EC2 instances? A lot more people with standardized competencies. For companies it's just great because they can hire from a much larger pool of candidates. It's great for workers too, because they can pick my skills and go work at another company where I'll be immediately productive, meaning they'll have a much smoother onboarding process (learning the business domain rather than fighting the technology).
- watermelon0 1y ago
  Same applies for clouds, each is a completely different beast. You have AWS EC2, GCE, Azure VM, and others. The main difference between cloud vs on-prem/colo/dedicated is that you need SRE/DevOps for the first, and sysadmins for the second.
- immibis 1y ago
  > VMware, Xen, or Hyper-V admin What happened to the idea of just running a program on a machine? Or Kubernetes. Everyone loves Kubernetes, why not use it?

immibis 1y ago

AWS is also hard to administer. Sure you don't have to deal with physical hardware, but you don't at Hetzner, either.

ranger_danger 1y ago
I have never had any issues with AWS, and I don't know anyone else that has either. I'm sure some might consider it difficult, but I don't think that the vast majority do, and I don't consider that enough of a reason to blanket state that it's hard for everyone... otherwise they wouldn't be using it anyway.
- immibis 1y ago
  Are you using it for virtual servers or for all their serverless stuff? I've never had any issues with real servers, either. Not even a hard drive failure (touch wood). I'm sure some might consider servers difficult, but [the rest of your comment]

freeone3000 1y ago

You still need an admin for AWS. It doesn’t actually abstract anything about services or workloads; it’s not Heroku.

yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago

Er, so now you're on AWS and instead of paying a sysadmin to run things, you pay a DevOps Engineer™ to run things. Just because it's in The Cloud doesn't magically remove the need to manage it.