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Ah man I'm really happy to see this and excited to try it out. As an Elixir enthusiast I've been worried that Elixir would fall behind because the LLMs don't w

Ah man I'm really happy to see this and excited to try it out. As an Elixir enthusiast I've been worried that Elixir would fall behind because the LLMs don't write it as well as they write bigger languages like Python/JS. So I'm really glad to see such active effort to rectify this problem. We're in safe hands.

throwawaymaths 1y ago
in principle llms should do better on immutable languages since there is no risk a term will get modified by a distant function call.
- bevr1337 1y ago
  In my experience, it's the functional part, not immutability, where they fall short. Any LLM can write immutable C# because it's easy and there's incredible amounts of training data.
  - throwawaymaths 1y ago
    good news, "immutable" is pretty much the only way that elixir is "functional" except for lambdas being first class datatypes (which is almost every language now)
zorrolisto 1y ago
Same, I watched a video from Theo where he says Next.js and Python will be the best languages because LLMs know them well, but if the model can infer, it shouldn’t be a problem.
- rramon 1y ago
  Folks on YouTube have used Claude Code and the new Tidewave.ai MCP (for Elixir and Rails) to vibe code a live polling app in Cursor without writing a line of code. The 2hr session is on YT.
  - rahimnathwani 1y ago
    This one? https://www.youtube.com/live/V2b6QCPgFTk https://www.youtube.com/live/V2b6QCPgFTk
    - rramon 1y ago
      That's the one.
- dingnuts 1y ago
  since models can't reason, as you just pointed out, and need examples to do anything, and the LLM companies are abusing everyone's websites with crawlers, why aren't we generating plausible looking but non working code for the crawlers to gobble, in order to poison them? I mean seriously, fuck everything about how the data is gathered for these things, and everything that your comment implies about them. The models cannot infer. The upside of my salty attitude is that hordes of vibe coders are actively doing what I just suggested -- unknowingly.
  - Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
    For what its worth, AI already has subpar data. Atleast this is what I've heard. I am not sure, but the cat is out of the box. I don't think we can do anything at this point.
  - fragmede 1y ago
    But the models can run tools, so wouldn't they just run the code, not get the expected output, and then exclude the bad code from their training data?
    - bee_rider 1y ago
      That seems like a feedback loop that’s unlikely to exist currently. I guess if intentionally plausible but bad data became a really serious problem, the loop could be created… maybe? Although it would be necessary to attribute a bit of code output back to the training data that lead to it.
- sieabahlpark 1y ago
  [dead]
mrcwinn 1y ago
Worried it might fall behind… further? I love LiveView, Phoenix, Elixir, OTP. But the ecosystem is a wasteland of abandoned packages. If Phoenix.new helps solve that problem, I’m all for the effort. But otherwise, the sole focus of the community leaders of Elixir should be squarely and exactly focused on creating the incentives and dynamics to grow the base. Compare, for example, Mastra in TypeScript or PydanticAI in Python. Elixir? Nothing. Not here to bash. It’s more just a disappointment because otherwise I think nothing comes close.
- uncircle 1y ago
  All languages are a wasteland of abandoned packages, i.e. there is a very long tail of stuff no one has maintained for years. It’s all relative to the mindshare. For its size, Elixir is doing quite well.
  - erichocean 1y ago
    Most languages require maintenance. Some languages—Clojure is a good example—have packages from 10 years ago, entirely unmaintained, that still work great because no maintenance is needed.
    - arrowsmith 1y ago
      This is also true for Elixir though. A lot of "unmaintained" Elixir packages still work fine.
      - sodapopcan 1y ago
        That's their point (I think, lol).
    - spiderice 1y ago
      In my experience, Elixir is very much on that end of the spectrum as well. I'm wondering if GGP just considers packages that don't have updates for 6 months as "unmaintained" or "dead" because they come from Javascript world where everything is, well... you know.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
acedTrex 1y ago
LLMs not writing it well might be the biggest current selling point of elixir lol.
- zupa-hu 1y ago
  Oh lol I love that angle!
- mattbrewsbytes 1y ago
  Selling point from a developer and career perspective for sure. Its also fun to program in and at least for me made me think about solutions differently. Its a negative point for engineering leaders that are the decision makers on tech stacks as it relates to staffing needs. LLMs not writing it well, developers that know it typically needing higher compensation, a DIY approach to libraries when there aren't any or they were abandoned and haven't kept pace with deprecations/changes, etc. In the problem space of needing a web framework to build a SaaS, to an engineering leader there are a lot of other better choices on tech stack that work organizationally better (i.e. not comparing tech itself or benchmarks, comparing staffing, ecosystem, etc.) to solve web SaaS business problems. I don't know where I stand personally since I'm not at the decision maker level, just thought I'd point out the non-programmer thought process I've heard.
bad_haircut72 1y ago
This is such a weird meme, Claude crushes elixir especially a fullstack app in liveview
- heeton 1y ago
  Yea CC is great with phoenix / liveview. It’s been doing things that teach me new tricks about elixir I didn’t know yet.
  - ferfumarma 1y ago
    What's a good place to start for a completely naive but interested user?
    - heeton 1y ago
      Sorry, I only just saw this comment. Feel free to reach out (email in profile) and I’d be happy to chat.
te_chris 1y ago
Claude and o3 are both excellent (if a bit erratic) elixir developers.
pawelduda 1y ago
Claude 3.5 produces very good Elixir/Phoenix code. Haven't tried 3.7 much but I assume it's only going to get better from here
neya 1y ago
I use o3, it's really good with Elixir. I prefer it to Claude, but Claude does a decent job as well. If you want to take your website and business down, use ChatGPT-4o's code
bluehatbrit 1y ago
This last few weeks I've been going hard on LLMs to put together a new prototype project. I've exclusively been using Claude Sonnet 3.7 within Zed (via github copilot) and it' fantastic. From time to time it tries to do something a little old-school, but nothing significant really. It's very capable at spitting out entire new features, even in liveview. Over all the experience has very productive, and at least on-par with my recent work on similar sized python and nextjs applications. I think because I'm using mostly common and well understood packages it has a big leg up. I also made sure to initialise the phoenix project myself to start with so it didn't try to go off on some weird direction.
- indigodaddy 1y ago
  Assuming you are on the $20 Zed plan? Has the 500 prompts/mo been sufficient for you? I'm debating between the Zed and Claude $20 plans-- no doubt I'd get better value from Zed's?
  - bluehatbrit 1y ago
    I'm on the free plan and have been using it via GitHub copilot instead, as the current project is a work one and they pay for that. Before this I did a small project and I hit the 50 free tier limit through Zed by the time I was about 90% done. It was a small file drop app where internal users could create upload links, share them with people who could use them to upload a file. The internal user could then download that file. So it was very basic, but it churned out a reasonable UI and all the S3 compatible integration, etc. I had to intervene a bit and obviously was reviewing everything and tweaking where needed. But I was surprised at how far I got on the 50 free prompts. It's hard to know what you really get for that prompt limit though as I probably had a much higher number of actual prompts than they were registering. It's obviously using some token calculation under the hood and it's not clear what that is. All in all I probably had about 60-70 actual prompts I ran through it. My gut says 500/mo would feel limited if I was going full "vibe" and having the LLM do basically everything for me every day. That said, this is the first LLM product I'm considering personally paying for. The integration with Zed is what wins for me over Claude, where you'd have to pay for API credits or use Claude Code. The way they highlight code changes and stuff really is nice. Bit of a brain dump, sorry about that!
nxobject 1y ago
Yeah – as someone who works in Common Lisp, I wish there was way to do complementary training for LLMs with existing corpora of codebases. Being able to read access documentation doesn't do much, unfortunately, to help with more general issues with correctness of output.
victorbjorklund 1y ago
I found them to be pretty solid for writing Elixir (not perfect but neither is it with JS) the last couple of months.

throwawaymaths 1y ago

in principle llms should do better on immutable languages since there is no risk a term will get modified by a distant function call.

bevr1337 1y ago
In my experience, it's the functional part, not immutability, where they fall short. Any LLM can write immutable C# because it's easy and there's incredible amounts of training data.
- throwawaymaths 1y ago
  good news, "immutable" is pretty much the only way that elixir is "functional" except for lambdas being first class datatypes (which is almost every language now)

zorrolisto 1y ago

Same, I watched a video from Theo where he says Next.js and Python will be the best languages because LLMs know them well, but if the model can infer, it shouldn’t be a problem.

rramon 1y ago
Folks on YouTube have used Claude Code and the new Tidewave.ai MCP (for Elixir and Rails) to vibe code a live polling app in Cursor without writing a line of code. The 2hr session is on YT.
- rahimnathwani 1y ago
  This one? https://www.youtube.com/live/V2b6QCPgFTk https://www.youtube.com/live/V2b6QCPgFTk
  - rramon 1y ago
    That's the one.
dingnuts 1y ago
since models can't reason, as you just pointed out, and need examples to do anything, and the LLM companies are abusing everyone's websites with crawlers, why aren't we generating plausible looking but non working code for the crawlers to gobble, in order to poison them? I mean seriously, fuck everything about how the data is gathered for these things, and everything that your comment implies about them. The models cannot infer. The upside of my salty attitude is that hordes of vibe coders are actively doing what I just suggested -- unknowingly.
- Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
  For what its worth, AI already has subpar data. Atleast this is what I've heard. I am not sure, but the cat is out of the box. I don't think we can do anything at this point.
- fragmede 1y ago
  But the models can run tools, so wouldn't they just run the code, not get the expected output, and then exclude the bad code from their training data?
  - bee_rider 1y ago
    That seems like a feedback loop that’s unlikely to exist currently. I guess if intentionally plausible but bad data became a really serious problem, the loop could be created… maybe? Although it would be necessary to attribute a bit of code output back to the training data that lead to it.
sieabahlpark 1y ago
[dead]

mrcwinn 1y ago

Worried it might fall behind… further? I love LiveView, Phoenix, Elixir, OTP. But the ecosystem is a wasteland of abandoned packages. If Phoenix.new helps solve that problem, I’m all for the effort. But otherwise, the sole focus of the community leaders of Elixir should be squarely and exactly focused on creating the incentives and dynamics to grow the base. Compare, for example, Mastra in TypeScript or PydanticAI in Python. Elixir? Nothing. Not here to bash. It’s more just a disappointment because otherwise I think nothing comes close.

uncircle 1y ago
All languages are a wasteland of abandoned packages, i.e. there is a very long tail of stuff no one has maintained for years. It’s all relative to the mindshare. For its size, Elixir is doing quite well.
- erichocean 1y ago
  Most languages require maintenance. Some languages—Clojure is a good example—have packages from 10 years ago, entirely unmaintained, that still work great because no maintenance is needed.
  - arrowsmith 1y ago
    This is also true for Elixir though. A lot of "unmaintained" Elixir packages still work fine.
    - sodapopcan 1y ago
      That's their point (I think, lol).
  - spiderice 1y ago
    In my experience, Elixir is very much on that end of the spectrum as well. I'm wondering if GGP just considers packages that don't have updates for 6 months as "unmaintained" or "dead" because they come from Javascript world where everything is, well... you know.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

acedTrex 1y ago

LLMs not writing it well might be the biggest current selling point of elixir lol.

zupa-hu 1y ago
Oh lol I love that angle!
mattbrewsbytes 1y ago
Selling point from a developer and career perspective for sure. Its also fun to program in and at least for me made me think about solutions differently. Its a negative point for engineering leaders that are the decision makers on tech stacks as it relates to staffing needs. LLMs not writing it well, developers that know it typically needing higher compensation, a DIY approach to libraries when there aren't any or they were abandoned and haven't kept pace with deprecations/changes, etc. In the problem space of needing a web framework to build a SaaS, to an engineering leader there are a lot of other better choices on tech stack that work organizationally better (i.e. not comparing tech itself or benchmarks, comparing staffing, ecosystem, etc.) to solve web SaaS business problems. I don't know where I stand personally since I'm not at the decision maker level, just thought I'd point out the non-programmer thought process I've heard.

bad_haircut72 1y ago

This is such a weird meme, Claude crushes elixir especially a fullstack app in liveview

heeton 1y ago
Yea CC is great with phoenix / liveview. It’s been doing things that teach me new tricks about elixir I didn’t know yet.
- ferfumarma 1y ago
  What's a good place to start for a completely naive but interested user?
  - heeton 1y ago
    Sorry, I only just saw this comment. Feel free to reach out (email in profile) and I’d be happy to chat.

te_chris 1y ago

Claude and o3 are both excellent (if a bit erratic) elixir developers.

pawelduda 1y ago

Claude 3.5 produces very good Elixir/Phoenix code. Haven't tried 3.7 much but I assume it's only going to get better from here

neya 1y ago

I use o3, it's really good with Elixir. I prefer it to Claude, but Claude does a decent job as well. If you want to take your website and business down, use ChatGPT-4o's code

bluehatbrit 1y ago

This last few weeks I've been going hard on LLMs to put together a new prototype project. I've exclusively been using Claude Sonnet 3.7 within Zed (via github copilot) and it' fantastic. From time to time it tries to do something a little old-school, but nothing significant really. It's very capable at spitting out entire new features, even in liveview. Over all the experience has very productive, and at least on-par with my recent work on similar sized python and nextjs applications. I think because I'm using mostly common and well understood packages it has a big leg up. I also made sure to initialise the phoenix project myself to start with so it didn't try to go off on some weird direction.

indigodaddy 1y ago
Assuming you are on the $20 Zed plan? Has the 500 prompts/mo been sufficient for you? I'm debating between the Zed and Claude $20 plans-- no doubt I'd get better value from Zed's?
- bluehatbrit 1y ago
  I'm on the free plan and have been using it via GitHub copilot instead, as the current project is a work one and they pay for that. Before this I did a small project and I hit the 50 free tier limit through Zed by the time I was about 90% done. It was a small file drop app where internal users could create upload links, share them with people who could use them to upload a file. The internal user could then download that file. So it was very basic, but it churned out a reasonable UI and all the S3 compatible integration, etc. I had to intervene a bit and obviously was reviewing everything and tweaking where needed. But I was surprised at how far I got on the 50 free prompts. It's hard to know what you really get for that prompt limit though as I probably had a much higher number of actual prompts than they were registering. It's obviously using some token calculation under the hood and it's not clear what that is. All in all I probably had about 60-70 actual prompts I ran through it. My gut says 500/mo would feel limited if I was going full "vibe" and having the LLM do basically everything for me every day. That said, this is the first LLM product I'm considering personally paying for. The integration with Zed is what wins for me over Claude, where you'd have to pay for API credits or use Claude Code. The way they highlight code changes and stuff really is nice. Bit of a brain dump, sorry about that!

nxobject 1y ago

Yeah – as someone who works in Common Lisp, I wish there was way to do complementary training for LLMs with existing corpora of codebases. Being able to read access documentation doesn't do much, unfortunately, to help with more general issues with correctness of output.

victorbjorklund 1y ago

I found them to be pretty solid for writing Elixir (not perfect but neither is it with JS) the last couple of months.