17 ms·
Estrogen: A Trip Report
- bdbenton5255 1y ago[flagged]
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- calico96 1y agoLynn Conway, fellow (former) MIT student documented her biochemical journey with estrogen therapies of the 1960s: https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/LynnsStory.html https://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/LynnsStory.html
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- calico96 1y agoIn 1966 Dr. Harry Benjamin (who worked with Lynn) documented early 20th century hormone research and treatment options in his book, "The Transsexual Phenomenon": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transsexual_Phenomenon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transsexual_Phenomenon
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- DoctorOW 1y agoAs a transgender woman myself, I have been witness to many in my community reduce some recreational drug use with HRT. I think it's unlikely that estrogen literally causes euphoria, but gender euphoria is real, lasting happiness. When you compare to the health effects of letting someone waste away on recreational drugs to dull dysphoria, it paints a visceral picture of transition as healthcare.
- 4gotunameagain 1y ago[flagged]
- AzzyHN 1y agoI'm pretty sure you're being transphobic, but for the life of me I can't understand what this statement is supposed to mean.
- 4gotunameagain 1y ago[flagged]
- DoctorOW 1y agoYour writing is so incredibly smug as to be incoherent. Both comments are so thickly coated in irony, that an actual point can not be derived.
- PartiallyTyped 1y agoThey are, they are also being intentionally obtuse and claim it to be a "novel" affliction. Plenty of evidence showing that Nazis murdered trans people and destroyed the first sexology clinic that provided health care to said people [1]; as well as evidence from history [2] and mythology [3] in support of trans people existing throughout history. To claim otherwise is to lie or regurgitate disinformation. Either way, not HN-worthy content. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-history-of-the-worlds-first-trans-clinic/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-forgotten-his... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_themes_in_mythology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBTQ_themes_in_mythology
- mensetmanusman 1y ago[flagged]
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- marcellus23 1y agoDoes this suggest at all that these changes could also be differences in the way (cis) men and women perceive the world? In other words, do cis women experience sweet food tasting sweeter, colors being more vibrant, etc, compared to cis men? Edit: I’m aware there’s evidence for differences in color discrimination and taste preferences between the sexes. But seeing the differences described from a first person perspective of someone used to being a male is fascinating. It’s a common cliche that women laugh much more than men, for example — and here’s someone saying that being on estrogen made funny things seem much funnier. I wonder what the experience is like for FtM who take testosterone?
- mintplant 1y agoWomen are generally better at perceiving and distinguishing colors and smells, according to the studies we have. Anecdotally, my sense of smell has gone from dull to vibrant over the course of my (MtF) transition, and I have a friend who no longer experiences the color-blindness she used to before hers, though I'm not aware of any scientific evidence or inquiry in this area.
- tofof 1y agoWomen (here I mean XX individuals) have two different alleles present for each of the green (OPN1MW, also the OPN1MW2 duplication) and red cones (OPN1LW), since these are found on the x chromosome. X-inactivation means that only one gets expressed in a particular cell, but this means individual photoreceptor cells can express either allele. The individual proteins and gene encodings of the cones can differ, and small variations shift the spectral sensitivity to slightly shorter or slightly longer wavelengths. It's possible, then, for a woman to express as many as five unique-ish cones in theory -- though there's only been one 'true' tetrachromat found so far. Still, having red and green cone variants that respond with a peak preference shifted 10-20 nm in addition to another unshifted cone (or, better, shifted the opposite direction) provides a biological basis to expect women (again, specifically XX individuals) to have finer color differentiation. This explanation, however, could not occur following a hormone replacement.
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- MondayGravity 1y agoPerhaps this is an insensitive question/comment, but do trans women feel like they have the wrong body or the wrong wholesale gender? In my experience with trans women I know, they still seem to relate primarily to men (they still gravitate towards male dominated interests) whereas many gay men I know seem to relate primarily with women, and gravitate towards women interests. So this reconciliation is hard, and the topic too sensitive for me to dare asking people I know in real life.
- kunai 1y agoInterests are not inherently gender-specific. I know many women who gravitate towards wargames, sports, and the like, typically male-dominated hobbies. We need to stop pursuing this notion that an activity is inherently male or inherently female. Most trans women I know are the exact opposite, they gravitate towards extremely feminine interests, like makeup, fashion, design, etc. Inherent attraction towards a particular interest only dictates your personality type, I don't think it's meaningful insofar as it relates to gender dysphoria -- I think that stems from a much deeper, much more subconscious phenomenon which is adjacent to body dysmorphia. But I digress. I proffer a question to those skeptical about gender transition: with the rise of GLP-1 blockers, many have found holes in the body positivity movement, in that a lot of formerly obese people who found solace in Ozempic and lost a lot of weight -- this accounts for a body transformation. Many report their symptoms of body dysmorphia disappeared entirely. Is this not the same for HRT and trans people? The other issue is that many are quick to compare the plight of a trans person to that of an anorexic -- but it's already established that anorexia nervosa is a special class of eating disorder that is multifactorial in origin and etiology. If you're content with GLP-1 blockers and Ozempic being used to combat obesity, then you should have no issue with HRT. It's essentially the same thing, being used to treat a very similar condition. A lot of obese people don't necessarily want to be skinny, they just want to feel comfy in their own skin, and that's a trait they share with trans people.
- davmar 1y agodon't forget that socialization plays a role. boys are guided to certain activities in their youth, girls to others.
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- gherkinnn 1y agoWhat an interesting read. I wonder, are these reports a reliable way to begin to understand what it feels like to be of the other sex? Insofar as such a thing is possible, of course. The anecdotes of smell and the sensation of powering up a hill are fascinating. On a different note, > At smoothbrains.net, we hold as self-evident the right to put whatever one likes inside one’s body; I never thought of it that way, but I agree.
- dehugger 1y agoYes, they're reliable. Source: I am trans femme, have spoken to many others who transitioned the opposite way (trans masc). We compare notes.
- znpy 1y agoI mean no disrespect, but anecdotal evidence is not evidence.
- cosmojg 1y agoYou can certainly take notes on all that anecdata and use them to design some proper experiments! But until someone gets the resources and willpower together to do all of that, the anecdata is all the evidence we have.
- aaaja 1y agoWhen a male takes estrogen it doesn't undo a lifetime of male sex development and existing as a male, nor does it give him a female reproductive system. So how could taking estrogen grant him an understanding of what it feels like to be the opposite sex?
- znpy 1y ago> But until someone gets the resources and willpower together to do all of that, the anecdata is all the evidence we have. Still not evidence.
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- pazimzadeh 1y ago> It’s as if I took the entire volumetric representation of the space around me and increased the degree to which every point within that could influence the location of every other point, recursively. This allows everything to elastically settle into a more harmonious equilibrium. What does this mean? There has to be a simpler way to get this idea across.. > Perhaps taste could be built out of something like dyadic vibrations, tuned by evolution towards consonance or dissonance in order to generate an attractive or aversive response in the organism? Same here
- ghushn3 1y ago> What does this mean? My understanding was like... you know those spring diagrams, where edges of a graph are all attached by a spring, and physics sorta causes nodes to cluster naturally? I think this is saying, "I wish all the space around me could order itself into a more natural and pleasing shape." > Same here Dyads are like... imagine you had two vectors, represented by lego bricks. After attaching them, rather than having a red brick and a blue brick, you have a particular Red-Blue brick. So, one can imagine these unique shapes move and vibrate in ways that are unique to that pair. The author is saying, I think, "Individual preferences aren't composed of atomic units, but rather subtle adjustments in all the combinations of those individual pieces. Evolution probably looks for places where those combinations line up nicely (and avoids places they don't line up nicely), and tunes the organism to seek those combinations."
- jhanschoo 1y agoI didn't understand that sentence, but from the subsequent descriptions I gathered that details became "less loud" and less noticeable. Do you know the so-called "OCD"-annoying memes where you have images with something just slightly improper or off? I gather that these bother the OP less now.
- HK-NC 1y agoI remember reading that autism was basically the brain equivalent of some roided out muscle beast. Too much testosterone in the womb or something. Given the huge crossover with trans and autism, could it just be a case of giving autistic men female hormones to try to balance this out over time? I dont really buy the rest of the fluff that comes with it, especially given the attitudes around it and my own experiences getting over dysphoria before there was a culture around taking things in another direction.
- ghushn3 1y ago> before there was a culture around taking things in another direction You are talking about a time before culture? Trans identity shows up as early as Mesopotamia, and there are cultures around the globe that have different genders than just Man and Woman.
- comrade1234 1y agoInteresting also that penis size is directly correlated with testosterone levels in the womb...
- foxmoder 1y agoFrom my understanding, it's unlikely. Many transgender women pre-HRT have very low testosterone levels. It's possible there's some causal arrow between being transgender and having autism, but to be frank much of it could come down to reporting bias, i.e. those with autism are more likely to not care as much about societal expectations and consequently are more likely to embrace being transgender publicly. This could also be exacerbated by the fact that autism in cisgender women is widely believed to be dramatically underdiagnosed due to gendered societal expectations around behavior and diagnostic tests that only check for traditionally 'male' autistic traits/behaviors. It's also the case that many individuals transition long after e.g. primary brain development ceases, so it's not particularly likely in my estimation that the body is trying to compensate for past development (given the developmental stage of life is complete).
- comrade1234 1y agoYou're telling me you can just go to a Walgreens in the USA and get a bag of estrogen and start injecting it without the advice and monitoring of a doctor? Even though hormone replacement therapy can lead to all kinds of problems? Is this normal?
- wtfwhateven 1y agoWhere on earth are you getting this idea from?
- comrade1234 1y agoFrom the first few paragraphs of the article? > and subsequently found myself cycling home from the pharmacy with a paper bag filled with repurposed menopause medication and then no mention after of monitoring of health effects?
- roughly 1y agoSo, the beginning of that sentence is: > I had jumped through the relevant bureaucratic hoops
- comrade1234 1y agoBureaucracy != medicine
- protocolture 1y agoMedicine does however = bureaucracy.
- wtfwhateven 1y agoInformed consent is absolutely medicine and absolutely includes advice from a doctor
- cobertos 1y ago
- looneysquash 1y ago> when prompted to state my gender identity or preferred pronouns, I fold my hands into the dhyana mudra and state that I practice emptiness on the concept of gender. That's fine, but when I tell people "Cube Flipper wrote this great blog post!", what pronouns do you want me to use actually use? I guess I'll refer to you as "they" since you didn't otherwise specify. But the "unknown/unspecified" version of "they" and not the "prefers they" version of "they". Looks like a great article. I didn't quite make it to the end. The science is interesting, but that isn't a trip I am considering, so I skimmed a little.
- antonfire 1y agoAs a fun aside on language, I prefer "they", explicitly, e.g. I pick "they" in pronoun dropdowns, I often wear a "they" pronoun pin, and so on. But insofar as people think in terms of these different versions of "they", I prefer the "'unknown/unspecified' version" over the "'prefers they' version"! Turns out that's hard to communicate. If being annoying by (not-)answering with "mu" to all gender/pronoun questions communicates it better, maybe it's a point in favor of being annoying! IMO it points at some cracks in the perspective that there are different versions in the first place.
- cube_flipper 1y agoI have legitimately never asked another human being to use a specific pronoun to address me before. Use what you like.
- kushan2020 1y agoWaking up everyday and drinking monster energy drink followed by Diet Coke in theory should have some effect on your brain. Does abstaining from them have any effect on your HRT?
- cube_flipper 1y agoI completely quit coffee and energy drinks (I'd still drink jasmine and peppermint tea) for a few months last year. No effect on HRT. I did experience an increased emotional depth which I suspect should have happened independent of what hormones I was taking (wow; this caffiene shit makes me agitated, who knew)
- trenbologna 1y agoI used to be into bodybuilding and the best I ever felt was when I was high testosterone and high estrogen. When I was not taking any aromatase inhibitors I felt amazing, happy, loving, and emotional in a way I can't explain but I felt more connected with my wife. I feel like it was a little glimpse into the female mind. When I crashed my estrogen I felt psychotic. Very interesting experience
- egypturnash 1y agoThis person is having a very very different experience of gender transition than I am. Transes are "immune to optical illusions?" WTF? They might just be looking for proof that the hormones are Doing Something a lot harder than I do after twenty-something years on them. I sure was looking for that for a while when I started. But this whole post really just reminds me of the time I got some acid that had completely evaporated by the time it got to me (if it had ever been any good in the first place) and I sat there trying to convince myself I was about to start tripping any second now. It's certainly had an effect on me or I wouldn't have bothered with the hassle and expense of continuing to acquire and take it for more than two decades but I'm sure not seeing more colors or "changing the balance between entropy and harmony" in my awareness of the world around me. My general happiness level has changed for the better. shrug (I'm also an artist, I was one long before the transition, so maybe I just, like, paid more attention to color and shapes in the first place, who knows.) The estrogen-to-witch pipeline is however a real thing.
- titanomachy 1y agoI don’t know if it’s just effective moderation of this forum, but I’m impressed that an article about a politically sensitive subject like hormone therapy for gender dysphoria, on a public forum, has such high-quality and civil discourse.
- ghushn3 1y agoHonestly, historically, trans related topics on HN are full of transphobia. This one seems relatively well received, and I don't know what's changed.
- karcass 1y agoI mean, mostly, main counterexample is that Manuel_D guy who is spouting debunked TERF talking points, e.g. he thinks the Cass Report hasn't been shredded. I think it helps that there are a LOT of us trans folks in tech to represent here.
- SequoiaHope 1y ago[flagged]
- FreakLegion 1y agoNB: jart is a trans woman. That doesn't make all of her opinions automatically correct, but as far as lived experience goes, she's about as informed as a person can be.
- SequoiaHope 1y agoOh my gosh I totally misread that then. Can’t delete my comment but I edited the incorrect comment out. I just wasn’t paying enough attention.
- somsak2 1y ago> At smoothbrains.net, we hold as self-evident the right to put whatever one likes inside one’s body appreciate seeing this. I've long identified as someone that's much more muscular than I have been in the past. it's interesting how steroid use for this subset is seen as so different from that same use in the gender dysphoria subset.