4 ms·

..as much as the CTRL key being moved to the wrong place. (Yes, I could map this elsewhere, but I use too many different machines.)

mananaysiempre 1y ago
Define "wrong"? Ctrl-Fn-Super-Alt has been used for ages by everyone except IBM/Lenovo and Apple[1], and (for what it's worth) Fn left of Ctrl is explicitly not recommended by ISO[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fn_key#Fn_and_Control_key_placement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fn_key#Fn_and_Control_key_plac... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#Function_keys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#Function_keys
- gonzalohm 1y ago
  And for Lenovo you can change it in the BIOS
- browningstreet 1y ago
  When I started in computers, the CTRL key is where CAPS sits nowadays. At some point it moved. To me, it makes no sense to me to make less-reachable the key that gets used the most. To reach the current CTRL key, I have to bend and twist my hand so that the pinky finger can reach the CTRL key. I never use the CAPS LOCK key, which is sitting under and adjacent to where the pinky rests.
  - mananaysiempre 1y ago
    Ah. Yes, OK, I sympathize with this sentiment but also feel it’s something of a lost cause for mass-produced keyboards. As far as Ctrl moving from one position to another, from what I can find it’s more that the two options coexisted for while, and eventually the current (and arguably worse) one outcompeted the other. Specifically: - The ADM-3A[1] (mid ’70s) had Ctrl above Shift and apparently no Caps Lock. - The Lisp machines[2,3] (late ’70s to mid ’80s) had Ctrl below Shift and Rub Out above Shift. - The IBM 3270 series (from the early ’70s onwards) terminals (those that were capable of lower-case input) are pictured in Wikipedia[4] with a Caps Lock above Shift and no Ctrl (which agrees with their input model) but I get the impression that IBM produced a bajillion keyboard variations for these. - The Model F variants for the XT and the AT (first half of the ’80s) has Ctrl above left Shift, Alt below it, and Caps Lock below right Shift[5], as well as 5×2 function keys on the left and no separate arrow keys; the later Model M variants (1985 onwards) use the modern layout; yet once again, looking at the separate pages for the Model F and the Model M, I get the impression that IBM simply produced a bajillion different versions of them. - The ANSI standard to which the appellation of “ANSI layout” refers is ANSI X3.154-1988, so presumably things had settled by then?.. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adm3aimage.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adm3aimage.jpg [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg [3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics-keyboard.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics-keyboard.j... [4] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM-3279.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM-3279.jpg [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Keyboard_layouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Keyboard_layou...
gonzalohm 1y ago
What do you mean? Most laptops have Ctrl | Fn | windows | alt Which matches what one should expect from a desktop keyboard (Ctrl is the left-most key)
- soco 1y ago
  If most laptops = HP then yes. However my Lenovo has Fn | Ctrl...
  - nucleardog 1y ago
    Where "most laptops" = "everything except Lenovo and Apple", more or less. Easily verified with a simple image search for "<brand> laptop keyboard" where "<brand>" is not Lenovo or Apple. Which is probably also why Lenovo's BIOS has an option to swap the Fn and Ctrl keys.
  - kej 1y ago
    Lenovo seems to be joining the rest of the world with Ctrl | Fn, based on the new ThinkPad I was issued at work a few weeks ago. I know the older Fn | Ctrl systems had a BIOS option to swap them, but I'm not sure if the new ones still have that.
- Macha 1y ago
  Given how much more I press ctrl than fn, fn on the left drives me crazy on the few laptops that do it.
bryanlarsen 1y ago
On keyboards with a sane layout, the ctrl key can be pressed with the meat of your hand rather than one of the fingers. This is harder on a laptop keyboard than it is with a proper desktop keyboard, but is still possible. ... as long as the keyboard has the proper layout, with ctrl in the far bottom left. One thing that Apple gets wrong and this keyboard gets right.
numpad0 1y ago
There aren't many laptops with Control key in the correct spelling and placement like how and where it is on HHKB, even most MacBooks except JIS builds get it wrong.

mananaysiempre 1y ago

Define "wrong"? Ctrl-Fn-Super-Alt has been used for ages by everyone except IBM/Lenovo and Apple[1], and (for what it's worth) Fn left of Ctrl is explicitly not recommended by ISO[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fn_key#Fn_and_Control_key_placement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fn_key#Fn_and_Control_key_plac... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#Function_keys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#Function_keys

gonzalohm 1y ago
And for Lenovo you can change it in the BIOS
browningstreet 1y ago
When I started in computers, the CTRL key is where CAPS sits nowadays. At some point it moved. To me, it makes no sense to me to make less-reachable the key that gets used the most. To reach the current CTRL key, I have to bend and twist my hand so that the pinky finger can reach the CTRL key. I never use the CAPS LOCK key, which is sitting under and adjacent to where the pinky rests.
- mananaysiempre 1y ago
  Ah. Yes, OK, I sympathize with this sentiment but also feel it’s something of a lost cause for mass-produced keyboards. As far as Ctrl moving from one position to another, from what I can find it’s more that the two options coexisted for while, and eventually the current (and arguably worse) one outcompeted the other. Specifically: - The ADM-3A[1] (mid ’70s) had Ctrl above Shift and apparently no Caps Lock. - The Lisp machines[2,3] (late ’70s to mid ’80s) had Ctrl below Shift and Rub Out above Shift. - The IBM 3270 series (from the early ’70s onwards) terminals (those that were capable of lower-case input) are pictured in Wikipedia[4] with a Caps Lock above Shift and no Ctrl (which agrees with their input model) but I get the impression that IBM produced a bajillion keyboard variations for these. - The Model F variants for the XT and the AT (first half of the ’80s) has Ctrl above left Shift, Alt below it, and Caps Lock below right Shift[5], as well as 5×2 function keys on the left and no separate arrow keys; the later Model M variants (1985 onwards) use the modern layout; yet once again, looking at the separate pages for the Model F and the Model M, I get the impression that IBM simply produced a bajillion different versions of them. - The ANSI standard to which the appellation of “ANSI layout” refers is ANSI X3.154-1988, so presumably things had settled by then?.. [1] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adm3aimage.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Adm3aimage.jpg [2] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg [3] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics-keyboard.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Symbolics-keyboard.j... [4] https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM-3279.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IBM-3279.jpg [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Keyboard_layouts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_PC_keyboard#Keyboard_layou...

gonzalohm 1y ago

What do you mean? Most laptops have Ctrl | Fn | windows | alt Which matches what one should expect from a desktop keyboard (Ctrl is the left-most key)

soco 1y ago
If most laptops = HP then yes. However my Lenovo has Fn | Ctrl...
- nucleardog 1y ago
  Where "most laptops" = "everything except Lenovo and Apple", more or less. Easily verified with a simple image search for "<brand> laptop keyboard" where "<brand>" is not Lenovo or Apple. Which is probably also why Lenovo's BIOS has an option to swap the Fn and Ctrl keys.
- kej 1y ago
  Lenovo seems to be joining the rest of the world with Ctrl | Fn, based on the new ThinkPad I was issued at work a few weeks ago. I know the older Fn | Ctrl systems had a BIOS option to swap them, but I'm not sure if the new ones still have that.
Macha 1y ago
Given how much more I press ctrl than fn, fn on the left drives me crazy on the few laptops that do it.

bryanlarsen 1y ago

On keyboards with a sane layout, the ctrl key can be pressed with the meat of your hand rather than one of the fingers. This is harder on a laptop keyboard than it is with a proper desktop keyboard, but is still possible. ... as long as the keyboard has the proper layout, with ctrl in the far bottom left. One thing that Apple gets wrong and this keyboard gets right.

numpad0 1y ago

There aren't many laptops with Control key in the correct spelling and placement like how and where it is on HHKB, even most MacBooks except JIS builds get it wrong.