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If a bunch of armed thugs who aren't wearing uniforms or badges show up and abduct someone, citizens don't have the right or obligation to do something about it

If a bunch of armed thugs who aren't wearing uniforms or badges show up and abduct someone, citizens don't have the right or obligation to do something about it? Just stand back and watch? That's the world you want to live in, one where kidnappings are normal?

ensignavenger 1y ago
They were wearing uniforms, I watched the video. Badges were not clearly visible in the video, but they certainly had uniforms.
- disattention 1y ago
  Anyone can literally just buy/make a uniform. Especially concerning if badges aren't visible. This argument doesn't hold much water imo.
  - ensignavenger 1y ago
    Perhaps, but the comment I was replying to was claiming "not wearing uniforms" which isn't what was going on. I have no idea if badges were displayed at any point, but this was a federal courthouse, one would hope that they would be asking for identification. It should also be noted that according to the article, NYPD was present at the time. I don't think, given the facts I currently have, that claiming he didn't know they were real ICE agents is going to hold much water.
    - FireBeyond 1y ago
      > It should also be noted that according to the article, NYPD was present at the time. Two NYPD officers were present, Landers' security detail. They weren't there to effect or assist with the arrest.
- snypher 1y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/17/nyregion/brad-lander-immigration-ice.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/17/nyregion/brad-lander-immi... No-one in the banner image of this article has a uniform? Is it too much to ask to be uniformed while acting in this capacity? There doesn't seem to be a need for subterfuge, they just don't want the bad optics.
  - ensignavenger 1y ago
    Oh look, the NYT got a picture to spin their yarn! Maybe watch the NYTs own video clip just below it?
timr 1y ago
> If a bunch of armed thugs who aren't wearing uniforms or badges show up and abduct someone citizens don't have the right or obligation to do something about it? Sure you do. Call the police. Record it, capture the details for evidence. > Just stand back and watch? Again, you're welcome to call the police. But no, you don't just get to rush in and start interfering because your sophisticated understanding of the circumstances as a complete nobody make you feel like Captain America. > That's the world you want to live in, one where kidnappings are normal? It's obviously not a "kidnapping". Nobody seriously believes that -- most obviously, Brad Lander, who wouldn't be screaming for a warrant from "kidnappers".
- kevinh 1y ago
  A few days ago someone shot people while pretending to be a police officer. Someone impersonating ICE for kidnapping isn't out of the realm of possibility.
  - timr 1y ago
    Right. So your logic is: because someone, somewhere, once did something illegal while dressed as a police officer, we should interfere with every arrest, everywhere, because they might be fake police? Or are you just restricting this logic to plainclothes officers, who aren't wearing uniforms at all?
    - acdha 1y ago
      The argument being offered is that if the police follow the law, the problem goes away and there’s no impact on legitimate law enforcement activity.
      - speakfreely 1y ago
        So until every police officer follows the law, everywhere, in every instance, you believe anyone should be entitled to obstruct arrests if they disagree with the law?

ensignavenger 1y ago

They were wearing uniforms, I watched the video. Badges were not clearly visible in the video, but they certainly had uniforms.

disattention 1y ago
Anyone can literally just buy/make a uniform. Especially concerning if badges aren't visible. This argument doesn't hold much water imo.
- ensignavenger 1y ago
  Perhaps, but the comment I was replying to was claiming "not wearing uniforms" which isn't what was going on. I have no idea if badges were displayed at any point, but this was a federal courthouse, one would hope that they would be asking for identification. It should also be noted that according to the article, NYPD was present at the time. I don't think, given the facts I currently have, that claiming he didn't know they were real ICE agents is going to hold much water.
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    > It should also be noted that according to the article, NYPD was present at the time. Two NYPD officers were present, Landers' security detail. They weren't there to effect or assist with the arrest.
snypher 1y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/17/nyregion/brad-lander-immigration-ice.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/06/17/nyregion/brad-lander-immi... No-one in the banner image of this article has a uniform? Is it too much to ask to be uniformed while acting in this capacity? There doesn't seem to be a need for subterfuge, they just don't want the bad optics.
- ensignavenger 1y ago
  Oh look, the NYT got a picture to spin their yarn! Maybe watch the NYTs own video clip just below it?

timr 1y ago

> If a bunch of armed thugs who aren't wearing uniforms or badges show up and abduct someone citizens don't have the right or obligation to do something about it? Sure you do. Call the police. Record it, capture the details for evidence. > Just stand back and watch? Again, you're welcome to call the police. But no, you don't just get to rush in and start interfering because your sophisticated understanding of the circumstances as a complete nobody make you feel like Captain America. > That's the world you want to live in, one where kidnappings are normal? It's obviously not a "kidnapping". Nobody seriously believes that -- most obviously, Brad Lander, who wouldn't be screaming for a warrant from "kidnappers".

kevinh 1y ago
A few days ago someone shot people while pretending to be a police officer. Someone impersonating ICE for kidnapping isn't out of the realm of possibility.
- timr 1y ago
  Right. So your logic is: because someone, somewhere, once did something illegal while dressed as a police officer, we should interfere with every arrest, everywhere, because they might be fake police? Or are you just restricting this logic to plainclothes officers, who aren't wearing uniforms at all?
  - acdha 1y ago
    The argument being offered is that if the police follow the law, the problem goes away and there’s no impact on legitimate law enforcement activity.
    - speakfreely 1y ago
      So until every police officer follows the law, everywhere, in every instance, you believe anyone should be entitled to obstruct arrests if they disagree with the law?