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I'm so angry right now. I did a deep dive into this at one point after being prescribed some generic Vyvanse through Sun via Dillons/Kroger. The pills smell lik

I'm so angry right now. I did a deep dive into this at one point after being prescribed some generic Vyvanse through Sun via Dillons/Kroger. The pills smell like fish and seem like they didn't work at all. I checked some records from the FDA and Sun wasn't listed. I brought it up to my doctor and they just brushed it off. I really hope another class action lawsuit is brought against Sun.

actionfromafar 1y ago
Isn't the new direction of capitalism in America Freedom from Regulation?
- cogman10 1y ago
  Yes. This is a clear example of why that's bad and why these agencies need funding and competent staffing.
  - throwawaymaths 1y ago
    these agencies had funding and competent staffing. they correctly identified that the factories were producing dangerous products.
    - cogman10 1y ago
      The funding comes in because they didn't have the funds to test the drugs. That's something I'd hope was happening with all drugs. The competence comes in because they put availability above safety. That's an incompetent trade-off.
      - throwawaymaths 1y ago
        the real irony is that price and availability cannot be a consideration in approving indications for new drugs
- billylb42 1y ago
  How did you arrive at that conclusion? All of the evidence provided in the article is prior to the “freedom of regulation” as you call it. To me, it’s indicative of a rotting regulatory institution that lost its way. FDA is about safety, not low cost drugs. I don’t know how that mandate became mission critical for them but it happened before the current administration.
  - cogman10 1y ago
    Almost certainly happened because of Clinton and the FDAMA. It's a law that "cut red tape" IE removed safety protocols and standards. These agencies are rotting primarily because they've been reworked to be business friendly over the last 40 years
- derbOac 1y ago
  The US is long past the point where we need to stop talking about medical regulation generically. Some regulation and enforcement needs to be increased, and others need to be decreased or eliminated, at least in my opinion. To me this sort of thing is fraud, and I feel like the FDA needs more resources and oversight to fight it. But with other things I think the FDA needs to back off completely, where it's overstepped its useful mission. I personally would like to see the FDA stop telling people what they can purchase or receive from whom, but spend more time guaranteeing that whatever is on the label is what it says it is and nothing else.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    To continue making a follow on point, also needing nuance - pharmaceutical manufacturing is exactly the type of industry that can and should be brought back to the US. First, through outright subsidies [0] to get the plants built. And then when domestic supply is high enough, through regulations prohibiting healthcare management plans from buying imported drugs. [0] spending some of the surplus from having a reserve currency on deliberate policies rather than it being blindly given to asset holders
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
leereeves 1y ago
How did you find out what factory the Vyvanse was made at?
- sct202 1y ago
  You can figure out the generic manufacturer by matching the active ingredient with the pill shape, color, and imprints on a pill identification website. Finding the exact factory of that manufacturer is much harder though.
  - wl 1y ago
    If you're going to a pill identification website to find out the manufacturer of a prescription drug, you're working too hard. The manufacturer printed is on the prescription label.
LoganDark 1y ago
Oh boy. I've had quite the experience with my own ADHD medication (dextroamphetamine in my case, which is essentially the stuff Vyvanse metabolizes into), and when they substituted for a different brand, that brand was completely different and so totally not compatible with this body. So now I have a Brand Medically Necessary because when they tried to switch it on me I went into hypertensive crisis :)
- pyuser583 1y ago
  The drug you mentioned had a reputation for these sorts of problems.
jnsie 1y ago
I have nothing but respect for physicians but my experience is that each acts as a more narrow filter than the last and, beyond their direct expertise they have very little expertise in billing, pharmacy or anything outside of their direct domain, nor do they have the bandwidth for it. Add to that the advertising phenomenon of 'ask your doctor about X' and I suspect that anything beyond the immediate care you're receiving has very little chance of receiving thought/cogent answers.
- xpe 1y ago
  I respect doctors (and people in general), but I don’t give the medical profession a passing grade. To speak in generalities (there are exceptions), their training is somewhat insane: long hours, sleep deprivation, knowledge cramming, and more. Their daily practice leaves little time or incentive for keeping up with studies. Most were not adequately taught statistics in the first place. To vent a bit more, I don’t think it is unfair to say the system is crap. If we could redesign it from scratch, understanding human nature, how people learn, and the need for ongoing learning, and evidence-based medicine, it would not be this. None of this is meant to assign blame to individuals.
  - thfuran 1y ago
    >Their daily practice leaves little time or incentive for keeping up with studies. Their certification requires it, at least to some extent.
    - xpe 1y ago
      Two responses. First, CME is criticized as being largely influenced by industry rather than primarily intended to advance medical learning. [1] Second, assuming medical continuing education is something like 20 to 40 hours depending on the region [2], this feels meager and insufficient. In contrast, think of how much learning a software developer does during a year -- perhaps close to 5+ hours per week on average! [3] Very different contexts, very different incentives. [1]: https://www.chronicle.com/article/lessons-from-a-professors-10-year-fight-to-rein-in-pharmaceutical-promotion/ https://www.chronicle.com/article/lessons-from-a-professors-... [2]: Based on very quick research: could be off -- corrections are welcome [3]: There are many differences, of course. Just to pick one example: to what degree does a software developer's continuing exploration into an area (such as a specific business process that their application needs to understand) help their craft? Does it improve their skill level? Does it result in transferable skills? Does it improve the quality of their work?
timr 1y ago
The "fishy odor" is a classic hallmark of amine-containing compounds [1], of which Vyvanse has three [2], including a terminal amine, which is so infamous (at least in the di-amine form) for being smelly that they have delightful names like "Cadaverine" [3]. I don't know if the completely purified drug officially has an odor, but usually you get some free amines that come along for the ride. More likely, some got outside of the gelatin capsule during shipping. [1] https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/amines-and-landscape-chemical-stink https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/amines-and-landsca... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine#/media/File:Lisdexamfetamine_structure.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine#/media/File:L... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaverine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaverine
- eightys3v3n 1y ago
  I pursonally took Vyvance brand name for over 1.5 years by opening the capsule and mixing it in a bottle of water. Never did it have a smell or taste. Even if Vyvance is manufactured with compounds that often have a smell or taste associated with them, the fact that this generic smelled almost certainly speaks to lower quality controls than the brand name based on my experience. At the very least it would speak to them choosing a component that smells over one that does not.
  - timr 1y ago
    > Even if Vyvance is manufactured with compounds that often have a smell or taste associated with them Just to be clear: it's not "associated" -- the drug itself probably smells, and you just didn't notice it. It's very, very common with drugs containing amines. Metformin, for instance, has a distinctly fishy odor (but it also has a couple more amines): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#/media/File:Metformin.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#/media/File:Metformi...
    - yababa_y 1y ago
      from my experience washing some mediocre amphetamine cooks, the fishy smell is not characteristic of pure amphetamine, but leftover methylamines from synthesis. vyvanse adds a lysine but none of these amines are free. it’s odorless as well, but any lysine esthers leftover will stank. it was shit product
VeninVidiaVicii 1y ago
I had the same exact issues on generic Vyvanse, which also causes me intense palpitations compared to the brand-name, I legit thought I was going to have a heart attack several times a day. So much so, that I quit it altogether—I couldn’t stand the side effects or the constant unavailability of the brand-name.

actionfromafar 1y ago

Isn't the new direction of capitalism in America Freedom from Regulation?

cogman10 1y ago
Yes. This is a clear example of why that's bad and why these agencies need funding and competent staffing.
- throwawaymaths 1y ago
  these agencies had funding and competent staffing. they correctly identified that the factories were producing dangerous products.
  - cogman10 1y ago
    The funding comes in because they didn't have the funds to test the drugs. That's something I'd hope was happening with all drugs. The competence comes in because they put availability above safety. That's an incompetent trade-off.
    - throwawaymaths 1y ago
      the real irony is that price and availability cannot be a consideration in approving indications for new drugs
billylb42 1y ago
How did you arrive at that conclusion? All of the evidence provided in the article is prior to the “freedom of regulation” as you call it. To me, it’s indicative of a rotting regulatory institution that lost its way. FDA is about safety, not low cost drugs. I don’t know how that mandate became mission critical for them but it happened before the current administration.
- cogman10 1y ago
  Almost certainly happened because of Clinton and the FDAMA. It's a law that "cut red tape" IE removed safety protocols and standards. These agencies are rotting primarily because they've been reworked to be business friendly over the last 40 years
derbOac 1y ago
The US is long past the point where we need to stop talking about medical regulation generically. Some regulation and enforcement needs to be increased, and others need to be decreased or eliminated, at least in my opinion. To me this sort of thing is fraud, and I feel like the FDA needs more resources and oversight to fight it. But with other things I think the FDA needs to back off completely, where it's overstepped its useful mission. I personally would like to see the FDA stop telling people what they can purchase or receive from whom, but spend more time guaranteeing that whatever is on the label is what it says it is and nothing else.
- mindslight 1y ago
  To continue making a follow on point, also needing nuance - pharmaceutical manufacturing is exactly the type of industry that can and should be brought back to the US. First, through outright subsidies [0] to get the plants built. And then when domestic supply is high enough, through regulations prohibiting healthcare management plans from buying imported drugs. [0] spending some of the surplus from having a reserve currency on deliberate policies rather than it being blindly given to asset holders

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

leereeves 1y ago

How did you find out what factory the Vyvanse was made at?

sct202 1y ago
You can figure out the generic manufacturer by matching the active ingredient with the pill shape, color, and imprints on a pill identification website. Finding the exact factory of that manufacturer is much harder though.
- wl 1y ago
  If you're going to a pill identification website to find out the manufacturer of a prescription drug, you're working too hard. The manufacturer printed is on the prescription label.

LoganDark 1y ago

Oh boy. I've had quite the experience with my own ADHD medication (dextroamphetamine in my case, which is essentially the stuff Vyvanse metabolizes into), and when they substituted for a different brand, that brand was completely different and so totally not compatible with this body. So now I have a Brand Medically Necessary because when they tried to switch it on me I went into hypertensive crisis :)

pyuser583 1y ago
The drug you mentioned had a reputation for these sorts of problems.

jnsie 1y ago

I have nothing but respect for physicians but my experience is that each acts as a more narrow filter than the last and, beyond their direct expertise they have very little expertise in billing, pharmacy or anything outside of their direct domain, nor do they have the bandwidth for it. Add to that the advertising phenomenon of 'ask your doctor about X' and I suspect that anything beyond the immediate care you're receiving has very little chance of receiving thought/cogent answers.

xpe 1y ago
I respect doctors (and people in general), but I don’t give the medical profession a passing grade. To speak in generalities (there are exceptions), their training is somewhat insane: long hours, sleep deprivation, knowledge cramming, and more. Their daily practice leaves little time or incentive for keeping up with studies. Most were not adequately taught statistics in the first place. To vent a bit more, I don’t think it is unfair to say the system is crap. If we could redesign it from scratch, understanding human nature, how people learn, and the need for ongoing learning, and evidence-based medicine, it would not be this. None of this is meant to assign blame to individuals.
- thfuran 1y ago
  >Their daily practice leaves little time or incentive for keeping up with studies. Their certification requires it, at least to some extent.
  - xpe 1y ago
    Two responses. First, CME is criticized as being largely influenced by industry rather than primarily intended to advance medical learning. [1] Second, assuming medical continuing education is something like 20 to 40 hours depending on the region [2], this feels meager and insufficient. In contrast, think of how much learning a software developer does during a year -- perhaps close to 5+ hours per week on average! [3] Very different contexts, very different incentives. [1]: https://www.chronicle.com/article/lessons-from-a-professors-10-year-fight-to-rein-in-pharmaceutical-promotion/ https://www.chronicle.com/article/lessons-from-a-professors-... [2]: Based on very quick research: could be off -- corrections are welcome [3]: There are many differences, of course. Just to pick one example: to what degree does a software developer's continuing exploration into an area (such as a specific business process that their application needs to understand) help their craft? Does it improve their skill level? Does it result in transferable skills? Does it improve the quality of their work?

timr 1y ago

The "fishy odor" is a classic hallmark of amine-containing compounds [1], of which Vyvanse has three [2], including a terminal amine, which is so infamous (at least in the di-amine form) for being smelly that they have delightful names like "Cadaverine" [3]. I don't know if the completely purified drug officially has an odor, but usually you get some free amines that come along for the ride. More likely, some got outside of the gelatin capsule during shipping. [1] https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/amines-and-landscape-chemical-stink https://www.science.org/content/blog-post/amines-and-landsca... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine#/media/File:Lisdexamfetamine_structure.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine#/media/File:L... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaverine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaverine

eightys3v3n 1y ago
I pursonally took Vyvance brand name for over 1.5 years by opening the capsule and mixing it in a bottle of water. Never did it have a smell or taste. Even if Vyvance is manufactured with compounds that often have a smell or taste associated with them, the fact that this generic smelled almost certainly speaks to lower quality controls than the brand name based on my experience. At the very least it would speak to them choosing a component that smells over one that does not.
- timr 1y ago
  > Even if Vyvance is manufactured with compounds that often have a smell or taste associated with them Just to be clear: it's not "associated" -- the drug itself probably smells, and you just didn't notice it. It's very, very common with drugs containing amines. Metformin, for instance, has a distinctly fishy odor (but it also has a couple more amines): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#/media/File:Metformin.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metformin#/media/File:Metformi...
  - yababa_y 1y ago
    from my experience washing some mediocre amphetamine cooks, the fishy smell is not characteristic of pure amphetamine, but leftover methylamines from synthesis. vyvanse adds a lysine but none of these amines are free. it’s odorless as well, but any lysine esthers leftover will stank. it was shit product

VeninVidiaVicii 1y ago

I had the same exact issues on generic Vyvanse, which also causes me intense palpitations compared to the brand-name, I legit thought I was going to have a heart attack several times a day. So much so, that I quit it altogether—I couldn’t stand the side effects or the constant unavailability of the brand-name.