5 ms·

OK but kind of outdated and incomplete. Meshcore is largely competing with Meshtastic nowadays: https://meshcore.co.uk/ https://meshcore.co.uk/ To remember: Lo

OK but kind of outdated and incomplete. Meshcore is largely competing with Meshtastic nowadays: https://meshcore.co.uk/ https://meshcore.co.uk/ To remember: LoRa only permits small text messages. Don't even think about images, voice nor binary files (I mean it). Another option is APRS using satellite connections through a cheap chinese walkie-talkie (Quangsheng UV-K5) for 20 euros to send text messages.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
Huh. Hadn’t heard of Meshcore before. Thanks for that. It sounds more organized than Meshtastic. Seems more polished, but also a bit more opaque (from my cursory examination). That may just be, because it’s not had as much time to get established. It has all the open credentials. From her article: > Their answer was both depressing and freeing: “You can’t. All you can do is be prepared with tools and a plan for when the crisis arrives. That’s when the organization will listen.” That is so sad, but also, so true. I was fortunate to have worked for a company that is over 100 years old, and that had weathered a couple of wars, depression, recession, market disruption, etc. They were about as open to disaster planning as anyone, but they could also be head-in-the-sand knuckleheads. The biggest thing was the company had a fiscal and cultural conservative bent; quite unusual in the tech industry, these days. Anyone that has managed a DR system, knows how difficult it is to get support. Disaster Recovery is expensive, resource-intensive, and difficult to test. It is also stuff people don’t want to think about. Sort of like insurance.
- nunobrito 1y ago
  My suggestion as someone preparing for this kind of stuff since quite a while: + Quangsheng UV-K5 + Android phone with 3.5 mm audio jack + APRSdroid installed Forget about LoRa, that is basically a toy. It is far more useful to have a functioning walkie talkie capable of talking with satellites and other stations at 50 kilometers of range.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
    The issue with satellite stuff, is that it’s pretty sensitive to active attack. It will be available for things like natural disasters, but not necessarily for war. In either case, jamming is a possibility.
    - nunobrito 1y ago
      That is inaccurate. You will NOT be able to jam a satellite outside local areas, the amount of power to do is monstrous and likely to cause cancer for anyone around. In a real scenario these things work. Please don't fall into "what if's" which are exotic and confused as things bigger than what they are.
      - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
        Well, from the comments, here, this sounds like a passionate topic, for folks. I've always been interested in helping folks that help folks. I started looking at Meshtastic, some years ago, but found the ecosystem to be a bit overly-complex, as is often the case, with "Swiss Army Knife" approaches.
        nunobrito 1y ago
        Yeah, indeed. If you are in the mood, dive a bit into APRS. Best thing is the android app combo with the walkie-talkie. Tends to give a usable setup that works for voice and data.
      - elevation 1y ago
        > You will NOT be able to jam a satellite outside local areas It is true that you will not be able to jam the _downlink_ frequency outside local areas. But due to the FM capture effect, anyone else in the same hemisphere with a basic 100w transmitter (and appropriate antenna) on the _uplink_ frequency will be able to deny the satellite service to all the 5W Baofeng radios that preppers are stockpiling.
- MaKey 1y ago
  AFAIK Meshcore was started by a disgruntled Meshtastic developer. It has got a smaller community and is messaging only, no sensor data transfer.
  - nunobrito 1y ago
    Then maybe time to know more rather than just throwing such claims. The network itself does far more than what other projects were doing and is being fast adopted across Europe.
    - MaKey 1y ago
      > Then maybe time to know more rather than just throwing such claims. Then please educate me, I'm listening.
      - nunobrito 1y ago
        I'm not your teacher, nor interested in that role. On Youtube you find complete comparison videos like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T56GTiHvZuE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T56GTiHvZuE
        tiagod 1y ago
        Isn't this video by the Meshcore developer?
        ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
        To be fair, he actually says that he isn't able to do comparison vids, yet (because the UK is fairly flooded with Meshcore, so I guess it's a good reason). The video is a promotion for Meshcore. But I'm not sure that's necessarily a negative. Meshcore does seem to be a good thing. The one issue, from my limited understanding, is that Meshocore doesn't seem to have integrated positional data, which would be very important for things like emergency response efforts.
ajsnigrutin 1y ago
The problem with lora (and APRS over satellite... well, even ground APRS) is, that the bandwidth is very limited and usually only for "one person at a time", so while meshtastic/meshcore might be fine for tens of stations and a few users chatting, once those numbers get higher, the routing/signalization uses up most of the bandwidth, and many people sending messages at the same time makes the whole system very unreliable. APRS is a bit better, because it requires ham licences and (usually) a bit more expensive equipment, but with "SmartBeaconing" and just a few hams, you get collisions (multiple people transmitting at the same time, effectively jamming eachother). Reddit is usually full of preppers and other idiots buying these cheap chinese radios, usually without any knowledge and licences (that are needed to use them), and in turn they know nothing about actual use of those devices.... simplex range in urban environment is measured in hundreds of meters or maybe one or two large buildings between radioss, and repeaters will be in use by actual emergency servics and not really usable for any kind of "private use". tldr: get a few books, a pack of cards, wait it out, not so long ago being unreachable away from home was the norm, and we managed.
- nunobrito 1y ago
  Please stop with the FUD. Portugal was for 24 hours without electricity. LoRa networks were jammed and non-operational because the bandwidth is limited. APRS kept working. It is far better to have a walkie-talkie that you can use as PMR on the 446 range and use for satellite text messages than an expensive toy that very few use. And as you also know: You do NOT require a radio license when operating under emergency situations, which is the context on this case.
  - ajsnigrutin 1y ago
    > And as you also know: You do NOT require a radio license when operating under emergency situations, which is the context on this case. In portugal? Yes, you need one. Probably in every other EU country too In USA too. I have no idea where people got the myth of not needing a licence in emergencies, probably due to not reading the actual rules. Also, you cannot use the same device for PMR and ham radio bands, the PMR device needs to be certified for PMR use, that means that it can only transmit on pmr frequencies and nowhere else. Other devices (eg. ham radio) cannot be used on PMR frequencies. It's not FUD, it's regulation which exists for good reason, because in cases of actual emergencies, trained ham operators can assist actual emergency services with communication, and that's impossible if every idiot with a baofeng jams the channels.
tecleandor 1y ago
What I don't get about Meshcore is... What's their goal. They seem a commercial venture, their contact email is customers@..... I don't know they're license... I rather use meshtastic.
- victorbjorklund 1y ago
  I think their basic idea is to have a more advanced (and therefore scaleable mesh) where you can have more control over the path your packets take. I dont get the impression they are very commercial. Seems to been started by people first approaching meshtastic with proposed changes to the algo and getting rejected and therefore "forking" (forking in quotes because I dont think they share any code)
- MaKey 1y ago
  Their iOS / Android apps are closed source, which is a turnoff for me.
  - nunobrito 1y ago
    Yeah, that is crappy indeed. The core itself is open source and someone could write a different android app but I doubt it would show up there as option. In either case, they are a good competitor.
alnwlsn 1y ago
If I go to https://meshcore.co.uk/about.html https://meshcore.co.uk/about.html, the fact that there is two youtube videos there and not a button that says "Download Docs PDF" shows me exactly how serious they are about "[We] connect people and things, without using the internet"
lambdaone 1y ago
You could just about squeeze voice down LoRa with a really low-bandwidth codec, as really aggressive codecs can manage < 0.5 kbps. If you want to sacrifice voice quality but use standard codecs, the military MELPe codec has 600 bits/s as one of its standard modes.
- nunobrito 1y ago
  And yet such implementation never was seen outdoors. Because it would likely violate the restrictions setup for the LoRa frequency. Using a normal walkie-talkie has none of those limitations while being cheaper and more versatile.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago

Huh. Hadn’t heard of Meshcore before. Thanks for that. It sounds more organized than Meshtastic. Seems more polished, but also a bit more opaque (from my cursory examination). That may just be, because it’s not had as much time to get established. It has all the open credentials. From her article: > Their answer was both depressing and freeing: “You can’t. All you can do is be prepared with tools and a plan for when the crisis arrives. That’s when the organization will listen.” That is so sad, but also, so true. I was fortunate to have worked for a company that is over 100 years old, and that had weathered a couple of wars, depression, recession, market disruption, etc. They were about as open to disaster planning as anyone, but they could also be head-in-the-sand knuckleheads. The biggest thing was the company had a fiscal and cultural conservative bent; quite unusual in the tech industry, these days. Anyone that has managed a DR system, knows how difficult it is to get support. Disaster Recovery is expensive, resource-intensive, and difficult to test. It is also stuff people don’t want to think about. Sort of like insurance.

nunobrito 1y ago
My suggestion as someone preparing for this kind of stuff since quite a while: + Quangsheng UV-K5 + Android phone with 3.5 mm audio jack + APRSdroid installed Forget about LoRa, that is basically a toy. It is far more useful to have a functioning walkie talkie capable of talking with satellites and other stations at 50 kilometers of range.
- ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
  The issue with satellite stuff, is that it’s pretty sensitive to active attack. It will be available for things like natural disasters, but not necessarily for war. In either case, jamming is a possibility.
  - nunobrito 1y ago
    That is inaccurate. You will NOT be able to jam a satellite outside local areas, the amount of power to do is monstrous and likely to cause cancer for anyone around. In a real scenario these things work. Please don't fall into "what if's" which are exotic and confused as things bigger than what they are.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
      Well, from the comments, here, this sounds like a passionate topic, for folks. I've always been interested in helping folks that help folks. I started looking at Meshtastic, some years ago, but found the ecosystem to be a bit overly-complex, as is often the case, with "Swiss Army Knife" approaches.
      - nunobrito 1y ago
        Yeah, indeed. If you are in the mood, dive a bit into APRS. Best thing is the android app combo with the walkie-talkie. Tends to give a usable setup that works for voice and data.
    - elevation 1y ago
      > You will NOT be able to jam a satellite outside local areas It is true that you will not be able to jam the _downlink_ frequency outside local areas. But due to the FM capture effect, anyone else in the same hemisphere with a basic 100w transmitter (and appropriate antenna) on the _uplink_ frequency will be able to deny the satellite service to all the 5W Baofeng radios that preppers are stockpiling.
MaKey 1y ago
AFAIK Meshcore was started by a disgruntled Meshtastic developer. It has got a smaller community and is messaging only, no sensor data transfer.
- nunobrito 1y ago
  Then maybe time to know more rather than just throwing such claims. The network itself does far more than what other projects were doing and is being fast adopted across Europe.
  - MaKey 1y ago
    > Then maybe time to know more rather than just throwing such claims. Then please educate me, I'm listening.
    - nunobrito 1y ago
      I'm not your teacher, nor interested in that role. On Youtube you find complete comparison videos like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T56GTiHvZuE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T56GTiHvZuE
      - tiagod 1y ago
        Isn't this video by the Meshcore developer?
      - ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
        To be fair, he actually says that he isn't able to do comparison vids, yet (because the UK is fairly flooded with Meshcore, so I guess it's a good reason). The video is a promotion for Meshcore. But I'm not sure that's necessarily a negative. Meshcore does seem to be a good thing. The one issue, from my limited understanding, is that Meshocore doesn't seem to have integrated positional data, which would be very important for things like emergency response efforts.

ajsnigrutin 1y ago

The problem with lora (and APRS over satellite... well, even ground APRS) is, that the bandwidth is very limited and usually only for "one person at a time", so while meshtastic/meshcore might be fine for tens of stations and a few users chatting, once those numbers get higher, the routing/signalization uses up most of the bandwidth, and many people sending messages at the same time makes the whole system very unreliable. APRS is a bit better, because it requires ham licences and (usually) a bit more expensive equipment, but with "SmartBeaconing" and just a few hams, you get collisions (multiple people transmitting at the same time, effectively jamming eachother). Reddit is usually full of preppers and other idiots buying these cheap chinese radios, usually without any knowledge and licences (that are needed to use them), and in turn they know nothing about actual use of those devices.... simplex range in urban environment is measured in hundreds of meters or maybe one or two large buildings between radioss, and repeaters will be in use by actual emergency servics and not really usable for any kind of "private use". tldr: get a few books, a pack of cards, wait it out, not so long ago being unreachable away from home was the norm, and we managed.

nunobrito 1y ago
Please stop with the FUD. Portugal was for 24 hours without electricity. LoRa networks were jammed and non-operational because the bandwidth is limited. APRS kept working. It is far better to have a walkie-talkie that you can use as PMR on the 446 range and use for satellite text messages than an expensive toy that very few use. And as you also know: You do NOT require a radio license when operating under emergency situations, which is the context on this case.
- ajsnigrutin 1y ago
  > And as you also know: You do NOT require a radio license when operating under emergency situations, which is the context on this case. In portugal? Yes, you need one. Probably in every other EU country too In USA too. I have no idea where people got the myth of not needing a licence in emergencies, probably due to not reading the actual rules. Also, you cannot use the same device for PMR and ham radio bands, the PMR device needs to be certified for PMR use, that means that it can only transmit on pmr frequencies and nowhere else. Other devices (eg. ham radio) cannot be used on PMR frequencies. It's not FUD, it's regulation which exists for good reason, because in cases of actual emergencies, trained ham operators can assist actual emergency services with communication, and that's impossible if every idiot with a baofeng jams the channels.

tecleandor 1y ago

What I don't get about Meshcore is... What's their goal. They seem a commercial venture, their contact email is customers@..... I don't know they're license... I rather use meshtastic.

victorbjorklund 1y ago
I think their basic idea is to have a more advanced (and therefore scaleable mesh) where you can have more control over the path your packets take. I dont get the impression they are very commercial. Seems to been started by people first approaching meshtastic with proposed changes to the algo and getting rejected and therefore "forking" (forking in quotes because I dont think they share any code)
MaKey 1y ago
Their iOS / Android apps are closed source, which is a turnoff for me.
- nunobrito 1y ago
  Yeah, that is crappy indeed. The core itself is open source and someone could write a different android app but I doubt it would show up there as option. In either case, they are a good competitor.

alnwlsn 1y ago

If I go to https://meshcore.co.uk/about.html https://meshcore.co.uk/about.html, the fact that there is two youtube videos there and not a button that says "Download Docs PDF" shows me exactly how serious they are about "[We] connect people and things, without using the internet"

lambdaone 1y ago

You could just about squeeze voice down LoRa with a really low-bandwidth codec, as really aggressive codecs can manage < 0.5 kbps. If you want to sacrifice voice quality but use standard codecs, the military MELPe codec has 600 bits/s as one of its standard modes.

nunobrito 1y ago
And yet such implementation never was seen outdoors. Because it would likely violate the restrictions setup for the LoRa frequency. Using a normal walkie-talkie has none of those limitations while being cheaper and more versatile.