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> buying the very few white elephants that won't actually make a difference There’s a lot to criticize in the f 35 program but there seems to be enough there t

> buying the very few white elephants that won't actually make a difference There’s a lot to criticize in the f 35 program but there seems to be enough there there for it to succeed markedly in the export market - beyond Germany there is Poland, Czech Republic, Italy, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland, Greece, Romania and UK — and that’s just in Europe. This includes several countries that did not historically equip with US kit (and excludes Turkey, which ordered it before it got sanctioned). You’re saying all those countries have made a huge mistake?

littlestymaar 1y ago
They made a political purchase at a time when they didn't expect to have any real use for those planes, so the actual capability price ratio didn't really matter.
- eduction 1y ago
  In that case, would Gripen have been a wise order either? Germany already has Typhoon. There is a history of Typhoon equipped countries ordering f35 because it’s a generation ahead. But Gripen is same generation as Typhoon.
  - littlestymaar 1y ago
    Probably not, you're right, the logical choice, from a capability perspective, would have been a modernization of the Eurofighter and/or and the pursuite of a Next Generation European Fighter program. (Which could have been much less expensive than the f-35 program if given less exotic requirements).
    - nradov 1y ago
      The Eurofighter was not a logical choice because Germany couldn't afford to get it certified for participation in the NATO nuclear sharing program. That would have driven the cost way higher than the F-35A.
      - littlestymaar 1y ago
        The ability to deploy US nukes has been useless since the end of the cold war, and now that it's starting to get relevant again, it's not reliable anymore. And how is Germany supposed to integrate French nukes on the F-35 if Scholz wants to pursue “strategic independence” now? Also, it was likely not a matter of cost, as the US has nothing to gain from allowing Germany to use a European plane to carry their nukes in the first place when they can sell them US planes instead.
        nradov 1y ago
        Cost was absolutely a factor. The Panavia Tornado was previously certified to carry US nuclear bombs. The same could have been done with the Eurofighter but Germany would have had to pay 100% of the program cost because no other NATO member was interested. I can't see any scenario where France would agree to share nuclear weapons with Germany. The only approach that might work would be to forward deploy French nuclear forces on German territory, with Germany picking up the cost.
        littlestymaar 1y ago
        > The Panavia Tornado was previously certified to carry US nuclear bombs During the cold war. That's a very important bit. > The only approach that might work would be to forward deploy French nuclear forces on German territor Are you sure you know how the current program works? Because that's how it does. The US aren't sharing nukes right now (that would violate NPT), the plan would be to hand off the weapons to its allies in the event of an invasion.
    - eduction 1y ago
      Ah interesting, I didn’t know about the next generation, link for anyone else interested - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Combat_Air_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Combat_Air_System FWIW I think the US should be more willing to buy euro fighters, because the number of US suppliers is getting smaller and they have too much leverage over US government.

littlestymaar 1y ago

They made a political purchase at a time when they didn't expect to have any real use for those planes, so the actual capability price ratio didn't really matter.

eduction 1y ago
In that case, would Gripen have been a wise order either? Germany already has Typhoon. There is a history of Typhoon equipped countries ordering f35 because it’s a generation ahead. But Gripen is same generation as Typhoon.
- littlestymaar 1y ago
  Probably not, you're right, the logical choice, from a capability perspective, would have been a modernization of the Eurofighter and/or and the pursuite of a Next Generation European Fighter program. (Which could have been much less expensive than the f-35 program if given less exotic requirements).
  - nradov 1y ago
    The Eurofighter was not a logical choice because Germany couldn't afford to get it certified for participation in the NATO nuclear sharing program. That would have driven the cost way higher than the F-35A.
    - littlestymaar 1y ago
      The ability to deploy US nukes has been useless since the end of the cold war, and now that it's starting to get relevant again, it's not reliable anymore. And how is Germany supposed to integrate French nukes on the F-35 if Scholz wants to pursue “strategic independence” now? Also, it was likely not a matter of cost, as the US has nothing to gain from allowing Germany to use a European plane to carry their nukes in the first place when they can sell them US planes instead.
      - nradov 1y ago
        Cost was absolutely a factor. The Panavia Tornado was previously certified to carry US nuclear bombs. The same could have been done with the Eurofighter but Germany would have had to pay 100% of the program cost because no other NATO member was interested. I can't see any scenario where France would agree to share nuclear weapons with Germany. The only approach that might work would be to forward deploy French nuclear forces on German territory, with Germany picking up the cost.
        littlestymaar 1y ago
        > The Panavia Tornado was previously certified to carry US nuclear bombs During the cold war. That's a very important bit. > The only approach that might work would be to forward deploy French nuclear forces on German territor Are you sure you know how the current program works? Because that's how it does. The US aren't sharing nukes right now (that would violate NPT), the plan would be to hand off the weapons to its allies in the event of an invasion.
  - eduction 1y ago
    Ah interesting, I didn’t know about the next generation, link for anyone else interested - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Combat_Air_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Combat_Air_System FWIW I think the US should be more willing to buy euro fighters, because the number of US suppliers is getting smaller and they have too much leverage over US government.