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> When I re-read Flowers for Algernon recently I was just sad. The second half of the story, where his mind is going away, is just brutal, especially when he ca

> When I re-read Flowers for Algernon recently I was just sad. The second half of the story, where his mind is going away, is just brutal, especially when he can remember how smart he was but knows it's gone for good. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21544149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21544149 "Von Neumann would carry on a conversation with my 3-year-old son, and the two of them would talk as equals, and I sometimes wondered if he used the same principle when he talked to the rest of us." - Edward Teller I watched a documentary from the 80ies a long time ago. A mathematician (can't remember his name) who worked with von Neumann in Los Alamanos was interviewed. He described von Neumann's last weeks in the hospital - the cancer had already metastasized into his brain. The mathematician said something along this lines (I am citing from memory): "von Neumann was constantly visited by colleagues, who wanted to discuss their latest work with him. He tried to keep up, struggling, like in old times. But he couldn't. Try to imagine having one of the greatest minds maybe in the history of mankind. And then try to imagine losing this gift. I was terrible. I have never seen a man experience greater suffering." Marina von Neumann (his daughter) later wrote this about his final weeks: "After only a few minutes, my father made what seemed to be a very peculiar and frightening request from a man who was widely regarded as one of the greatest - if not the greatest - mathematician of the 20th century. He wanted me to give him two numbers, like 7 and 6 or 10 and 3, and ask him to tell me their sum. For as long as I can remember, I had always known that my father's major source of self-regard, what he felt to be the very essence of his being, was his incredible mental capacity. In this late stage of his illness, he must have been aware that this capacity was deteriorating rapidly, and the panic that caused was worse than any physical pain. In demanding that I test him on these elementary sums, he was seeking reassurance that at least a small fragment of this intellectual powers remained."

squigz 1y ago
Now keep in mind that that frustration - the absolute torture of losing who and what you are - applies to everyone going through something like this, not just the greatest minds of their time. Makes me glad that we're starting to look at assisted dying more seriously...
- tough 1y ago
  why not try to cure alzheimer or other mental diseases that show up on the elderly instead?
  - squigz 1y ago
    Are these mutually exclusive ideas? Can we not pursue research in this area while not forcing families to watch their loved ones slowly lose their mind and wither away?
    - tough 1y ago
      I guess we can explore both, but I'd ask you to research how these laws are already affecting families too in new ways on places where eutanasia is already legal. It's easy on older -about to die-, people, but what about not such clear cut cases, some families are actually against their beloved ones taking their lifes, and the state allowing it, (Parents suing their offspring, to try and not have them do it, for example) and yes, a judge rules out on such cases, but to me, well, i dont see why the state should -sanction- taking your own life, when is something that shouldn't be natural, there's medical cases for sure, but laws sadly aren't perfect, i'd rather have no one wrongly off themselves
      - squigz 1y ago
        > I guess we can explore both, but I'd ask you to research how these laws are already affecting families too in new ways on places where eutanasia is already legal. Can you provide some reading? Because this doesn't really mean much by itself. > It's easy on older -about to die-, people, but what about not such clear cut cases, some families are actually against their beloved ones taking their lifes, and the state allowing it, (Parents suing their offspring, to try and not have them do it, for example) Then those families can talk about it and the person dying can make their choice. The families who don't like it can do what they want, just like those who do want it. > when is something that shouldn't be natural, Almost nothing about our modern life is "natural", including most of medicine. That said, how is death unnatural?
kcplate 1y ago
> In this late stage of his illness, he must have been aware that this capacity was deteriorating rapidly, and the panic that caused was worse than any physical pain. I watched my father go through this (due to Alzheimer’s) before he passed away. He would say “I don’t understand why I just can’t think like I used to”. It was heartbreaking. He was a brilliant mathematician before the disease put him in a mental prison. It was pure torture for him.
Workaccount2 1y ago
Watching my grandmother slide helplessly into the dark mental abyss of dementia and then be lost inside it for years made me realize that it is downright inhumane to not offer end of life assistance to people.
- bluefirebrand 1y ago
  I have conflicting feelings on it On one hand, I had a similar experience with my grandfather. He eventually couldn't even remember to speak English, he reverted to his childhood language. When we translated, he thought I was a childhood friend of his, not his grandson. It was awful But sometimes he would be so lucid and remember everything. It was so awful thinking that "he is still in there" the idea of him choosing to end it and not have those last few times to talk.. I dunno During one of those lucid times was the most deep and important conversation I ever had with him. He understood what was happening and it gave him the freedom (courage?) to talk about things he'd never talked to me about before. It was so important to me as a young man, I cannot imagine if he had signed an end of life form and I never got to see that side of him before he passed Selfish of me I know. But still. Maybe this really just highlights how important it is for people to really talk to one another when they are alive
  - squigz 1y ago
    > I have conflicting feelings on it As ardent a supporter of assisted death as I am, I really don't think there's any other way to feel about it. You illustrate exactly why these types of choices will never be easy.
    - bluefirebrand 1y ago
      Yeah, to clarify I do support it. I think reducing suffering is a noble goal and allowing people to choose not to suffer needlessly is overall a good thing But it definitely is not cut and dry and I can see why some people are extremely resistant to the idea
      - 1y ago
animal531 1y ago
When I was 20 I could come up with an idea and just sit and my computer and code it over however many hours without experiencing any issues. If I was reading a book as a teen my eyes would eventually get a little fuzzy, but we're talking margins here. Now I'm close to 50 and a confluence of things have hit me. I figured out that I have a crippling case of ADD (who knew?) and the medication has been amazing. I really want to code more and have so many ideas and things I want (and financially speaking need) to work on, but my eyes are taking a tremendous amount of strain, so in the end a whole portion of the gains feels as if they're being wasted. The old brain is at least still firing, when that begins to go I'm not sure what I'm going to have left.

squigz 1y ago

Now keep in mind that that frustration - the absolute torture of losing who and what you are - applies to everyone going through something like this, not just the greatest minds of their time. Makes me glad that we're starting to look at assisted dying more seriously...

tough 1y ago
why not try to cure alzheimer or other mental diseases that show up on the elderly instead?
- squigz 1y ago
  Are these mutually exclusive ideas? Can we not pursue research in this area while not forcing families to watch their loved ones slowly lose their mind and wither away?
  - tough 1y ago
    I guess we can explore both, but I'd ask you to research how these laws are already affecting families too in new ways on places where eutanasia is already legal. It's easy on older -about to die-, people, but what about not such clear cut cases, some families are actually against their beloved ones taking their lifes, and the state allowing it, (Parents suing their offspring, to try and not have them do it, for example) and yes, a judge rules out on such cases, but to me, well, i dont see why the state should -sanction- taking your own life, when is something that shouldn't be natural, there's medical cases for sure, but laws sadly aren't perfect, i'd rather have no one wrongly off themselves
    - squigz 1y ago
      > I guess we can explore both, but I'd ask you to research how these laws are already affecting families too in new ways on places where eutanasia is already legal. Can you provide some reading? Because this doesn't really mean much by itself. > It's easy on older -about to die-, people, but what about not such clear cut cases, some families are actually against their beloved ones taking their lifes, and the state allowing it, (Parents suing their offspring, to try and not have them do it, for example) Then those families can talk about it and the person dying can make their choice. The families who don't like it can do what they want, just like those who do want it. > when is something that shouldn't be natural, Almost nothing about our modern life is "natural", including most of medicine. That said, how is death unnatural?

kcplate 1y ago

> In this late stage of his illness, he must have been aware that this capacity was deteriorating rapidly, and the panic that caused was worse than any physical pain. I watched my father go through this (due to Alzheimer’s) before he passed away. He would say “I don’t understand why I just can’t think like I used to”. It was heartbreaking. He was a brilliant mathematician before the disease put him in a mental prison. It was pure torture for him.

Workaccount2 1y ago

Watching my grandmother slide helplessly into the dark mental abyss of dementia and then be lost inside it for years made me realize that it is downright inhumane to not offer end of life assistance to people.

bluefirebrand 1y ago
I have conflicting feelings on it On one hand, I had a similar experience with my grandfather. He eventually couldn't even remember to speak English, he reverted to his childhood language. When we translated, he thought I was a childhood friend of his, not his grandson. It was awful But sometimes he would be so lucid and remember everything. It was so awful thinking that "he is still in there" the idea of him choosing to end it and not have those last few times to talk.. I dunno During one of those lucid times was the most deep and important conversation I ever had with him. He understood what was happening and it gave him the freedom (courage?) to talk about things he'd never talked to me about before. It was so important to me as a young man, I cannot imagine if he had signed an end of life form and I never got to see that side of him before he passed Selfish of me I know. But still. Maybe this really just highlights how important it is for people to really talk to one another when they are alive
- squigz 1y ago
  > I have conflicting feelings on it As ardent a supporter of assisted death as I am, I really don't think there's any other way to feel about it. You illustrate exactly why these types of choices will never be easy.
  - bluefirebrand 1y ago
    Yeah, to clarify I do support it. I think reducing suffering is a noble goal and allowing people to choose not to suffer needlessly is overall a good thing But it definitely is not cut and dry and I can see why some people are extremely resistant to the idea
    - 1y ago

animal531 1y ago

When I was 20 I could come up with an idea and just sit and my computer and code it over however many hours without experiencing any issues. If I was reading a book as a teen my eyes would eventually get a little fuzzy, but we're talking margins here. Now I'm close to 50 and a confluence of things have hit me. I figured out that I have a crippling case of ADD (who knew?) and the medication has been amazing. I really want to code more and have so many ideas and things I want (and financially speaking need) to work on, but my eyes are taking a tremendous amount of strain, so in the end a whole portion of the gains feels as if they're being wasted. The old brain is at least still firing, when that begins to go I'm not sure what I'm going to have left.