8 ms·

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/just/preemptive.shtml#:~:text=A%20pre%2Demptive%20strike%20is,from%20carrying%20out%20its%20threat. https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethic

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/just/preemptive.shtml#:~:text=A%20pre%2Demptive%20strike%20is,from%20carrying%20out%20its%20threat. https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/war/just/preemptive.shtml#:~:te... > One ethical expert (Michael Walzer) has put forward some conditions that he thinks must be satisfied to justify a pre-emptive strike: >an obvious intention to do injury >active preparations that turn that intention into a positive danger >a situation in which the risk of defeat will be greatly increased if the fight is delayed Is there evidence of these three important points to justify this attack as “preemptive”?

deleted 1y ago
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rasz 1y ago
You can only pretend Houthis are making ballistic missiles in their caves and arent directly supplied and fed targeting data by Iran to sink ships crossing red sea for so long.
- tguvot 1y ago
  you forget that in mass media not reported that every (other) day for past couple of months there are ballistic missiles launched towards Israel
  - cherry_tree 1y ago
    Are you referring to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Iran%E2%80%93Israel_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Iran%E2%80%93Israel_con... ? Or can you provide more information about Iran attacking Israel everyday in 2025? (Not to say that a few months means this conflict has ended, genuinely curious what the media I’ve seen has under/mis/not-reported)
    - tguvot 1y ago
      Houthis attack Israel with ballistic missiles which are supplied to them by Iran for this purpose. In past couple of months it happens almost every (other) day. Sometime a couple times a day. The only time it was on news when Israel failed to intercept missile and it fell in vicinity of Ben Gurion airport.
- cherry_tree 1y ago
  Which of the three points are you suggesting “Iran supplies arms to the houthis in Yemen” satisfies in the above criteria to justify the preemptive attack in Tehran?
  - roshin 1y ago
    It seems like it doesn't justify a preemptive attack, but rather a counter attack. Israel is responding to missile attacks from Yemen by attacking the manufacturers in Iran
    - cempaka 1y ago
      And those missile attacks were in response to Israel's unrelenting and brutal genocide in Gaza, so the 'preemptive' term is still nonsense.
      - UltraSane 1y ago
        Why is Israel in Gaza? Oh yeh, because Hamas invaded Israel on Oct 7 2023 and killed 1,200 people. To put that death toll in perspective, it would be like a Mexican Cartel invading the US and killing 41,000 people. For China it would be 174,000 people.
        ty6853 1y ago
        'Put it in perspective' https://visualizingpalestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/b37ba59fcf74f3b091addbcf8af349ac-scaled.jpg https://visualizingpalestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/...
        tguvot 1y ago
        Put in in perspective https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_Attacks_fired_at_Israel_from_the_Gaza_Strip_by_year.png https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_Attacks_fired_at...
suraci 1y ago
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aen1 1y ago
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- redczar 1y ago
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  - skissane 1y ago
    > There are no indications that Iran intends to use nuclear weapons against Israel. The Iranian government are rather extreme theocrats, but they aren’t a suicide cult. They know that a nuclear first strike against Israel would result in massive nuclear retaliation aimed at annihilating Iran as a modern nation-state. They aren’t going to do that. I think their primary reason for pursuing nuclear weapons is as a deterrent against conventional invasion, forcible “regime change” like what the US did to Saddam Hussein - much as Iran welcomed the removal of one of their national archenemies - given Iraq is majority Shi’a, a democratic Iraq is generally more friendly to Iran, although not all Iraqi Shi’a are pro-Iranian (e.g. Ayatollah Sistani, who is very influential, dislikes how Iran has politicised the religion) - but it raised the risk the Americans might try the same thing on them.
    - redczar 1y ago
      Yes.
    - mkfs 1y ago
      > I think their primary reason for pursuing nuclear weapons is as a deterrent against conventional invasion Israel just showed how effective that deterrent is.
  - TiredOfLife 1y ago
    It's not like Iran did this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2024_Iranian_strikes_against_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2024_Iranian_strikes_aga... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_2024_Iranian_strikes_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_2024_Iranian_strikes_o...
mhb 1y ago
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- deleted 1y ago
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nradov 1y ago
Ethics are utterly irrelevant in geopolitical affairs. When nation states face existential threats they'll do whatever it takes to survive. They might invent some ethical justification after the fact for public consumption. And I don't mean this as a particular criticism of Israel. Most other countries do the same sort of thing when necessary.
- tastyface 1y ago
  Is Israel facing an existential threat or Netanyahu?
  - econ 1y ago
    They are the same thing.
- guelo 1y ago
  That's only because we're throwing away the hard fought prize humanity earned at the cost of two world wars and millions of lives: the system of international laws and the UN.
  - nradov 1y ago
    Nah. The UN is a cute little debating society but it never had any meaningful capacity to enforce international treaties on it's own. Relations between sovereign states have always been fundamentally anarchic, and always will be. The current system might be bad, but some sort of world government run by the UN would be far worse.
    - econ 1y ago
      On the contrary, the US has become England: A state of the art cutting edge industrial society and empire turned into a smug entitlement driven immoral turd that is far beyond useless for everyone outside and most inside of it. This will inevitably trigger a global effort to disconnect and help foster the downfall. It will be expensive for everyone involved. Also wise to remember, there are now so many quiet parts you can't say out loud that pretty much everyone who knows anything no longer participates in online conversation. We don't make things in the West anymore so our dialog has no constructive purpose. You don't care what I think, say or who I am but those with nefarious intend are the ones paying close attention to everyone. The destructive people are outperforming the rest of us and it can only end in one way. It has always ended the same way.
breppp 1y ago
> An obvious intention to do injury https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-general-says-tehran-aims-to-wipe-israel-off-the-political-map-report/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-general-says-tehran-aims-... "Iran general says Tehran aims to wipe Israel off the ‘global political map’", that's consistent with other leaders and the regime ideology since the very start “We warn them [Zionists] that if a new war breaks out, it will result in their termination,” and there are no shortage of such quotes, and even concrete plans (for example by using Hamas and Hezbollah), one attempt of which we have witnessed in 2023 https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/hamas-strategy-to-destroy-israel-from-theory-into-practice-as-seen-in-captured-documents/ https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/hamas-strategy-to-destr... > active preparations that turn that intention into a positive danger >a situation in which the risk of defeat will be greatly increased if the fight is delayed We know independently that Iran has been enriching massive amounts of uranium to degrees of purity only suitable for nuclear weapons. See last announcement by the International Atomic Energy Agency. According to Israel there have been other advancements in the nuclear program which might lead them to a nuclear bomb
- deleted 1y ago
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_DeadFred_ 1y ago
1. Arming and organizing proxies to attack Israel for years is much more than just intention to do injury, it is actual. Those proxies continue attack on Israel (the latest missile launch at Israel was this week). How many missiles does a country have to eat before clause 1 if fulfilled? Any country besides Israel that number would be 1. In additional Iran does not recognise Israel's right to exist as a country and explicitly calls for Israel's destruction. 2. https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-857003 https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-857003 3. https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-857003 https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-857003

deleted 1y ago

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rasz 1y ago

You can only pretend Houthis are making ballistic missiles in their caves and arent directly supplied and fed targeting data by Iran to sink ships crossing red sea for so long.

tguvot 1y ago
you forget that in mass media not reported that every (other) day for past couple of months there are ballistic missiles launched towards Israel
- cherry_tree 1y ago
  Are you referring to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Iran%E2%80%93Israel_conflict https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Iran%E2%80%93Israel_con... ? Or can you provide more information about Iran attacking Israel everyday in 2025? (Not to say that a few months means this conflict has ended, genuinely curious what the media I’ve seen has under/mis/not-reported)
  - tguvot 1y ago
    Houthis attack Israel with ballistic missiles which are supplied to them by Iran for this purpose. In past couple of months it happens almost every (other) day. Sometime a couple times a day. The only time it was on news when Israel failed to intercept missile and it fell in vicinity of Ben Gurion airport.
cherry_tree 1y ago
Which of the three points are you suggesting “Iran supplies arms to the houthis in Yemen” satisfies in the above criteria to justify the preemptive attack in Tehran?
- roshin 1y ago
  It seems like it doesn't justify a preemptive attack, but rather a counter attack. Israel is responding to missile attacks from Yemen by attacking the manufacturers in Iran
  - cempaka 1y ago
    And those missile attacks were in response to Israel's unrelenting and brutal genocide in Gaza, so the 'preemptive' term is still nonsense.
    - UltraSane 1y ago
      Why is Israel in Gaza? Oh yeh, because Hamas invaded Israel on Oct 7 2023 and killed 1,200 people. To put that death toll in perspective, it would be like a Mexican Cartel invading the US and killing 41,000 people. For China it would be 174,000 people.
      - ty6853 1y ago
        'Put it in perspective' https://visualizingpalestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/b37ba59fcf74f3b091addbcf8af349ac-scaled.jpg https://visualizingpalestine.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/...
        tguvot 1y ago
        Put in in perspective https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_Attacks_fired_at_Israel_from_the_Gaza_Strip_by_year.png https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_Attacks_fired_at...

suraci 1y ago

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aen1 1y ago

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redczar 1y ago
[flagged]
- skissane 1y ago
  > There are no indications that Iran intends to use nuclear weapons against Israel. The Iranian government are rather extreme theocrats, but they aren’t a suicide cult. They know that a nuclear first strike against Israel would result in massive nuclear retaliation aimed at annihilating Iran as a modern nation-state. They aren’t going to do that. I think their primary reason for pursuing nuclear weapons is as a deterrent against conventional invasion, forcible “regime change” like what the US did to Saddam Hussein - much as Iran welcomed the removal of one of their national archenemies - given Iraq is majority Shi’a, a democratic Iraq is generally more friendly to Iran, although not all Iraqi Shi’a are pro-Iranian (e.g. Ayatollah Sistani, who is very influential, dislikes how Iran has politicised the religion) - but it raised the risk the Americans might try the same thing on them.
  - redczar 1y ago
    Yes.
  - mkfs 1y ago
    > I think their primary reason for pursuing nuclear weapons is as a deterrent against conventional invasion Israel just showed how effective that deterrent is.
- TiredOfLife 1y ago
  It's not like Iran did this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2024_Iranian_strikes_against_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_2024_Iranian_strikes_aga... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_2024_Iranian_strikes_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_2024_Iranian_strikes_o...

mhb 1y ago

[flagged]

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

nradov 1y ago

Ethics are utterly irrelevant in geopolitical affairs. When nation states face existential threats they'll do whatever it takes to survive. They might invent some ethical justification after the fact for public consumption. And I don't mean this as a particular criticism of Israel. Most other countries do the same sort of thing when necessary.

tastyface 1y ago
Is Israel facing an existential threat or Netanyahu?
- econ 1y ago
  They are the same thing.
guelo 1y ago
That's only because we're throwing away the hard fought prize humanity earned at the cost of two world wars and millions of lives: the system of international laws and the UN.
- nradov 1y ago
  Nah. The UN is a cute little debating society but it never had any meaningful capacity to enforce international treaties on it's own. Relations between sovereign states have always been fundamentally anarchic, and always will be. The current system might be bad, but some sort of world government run by the UN would be far worse.
  - econ 1y ago
    On the contrary, the US has become England: A state of the art cutting edge industrial society and empire turned into a smug entitlement driven immoral turd that is far beyond useless for everyone outside and most inside of it. This will inevitably trigger a global effort to disconnect and help foster the downfall. It will be expensive for everyone involved. Also wise to remember, there are now so many quiet parts you can't say out loud that pretty much everyone who knows anything no longer participates in online conversation. We don't make things in the West anymore so our dialog has no constructive purpose. You don't care what I think, say or who I am but those with nefarious intend are the ones paying close attention to everyone. The destructive people are outperforming the rest of us and it can only end in one way. It has always ended the same way.

breppp 1y ago

> An obvious intention to do injury https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-general-says-tehran-aims-to-wipe-israel-off-the-political-map-report/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/iran-general-says-tehran-aims-... "Iran general says Tehran aims to wipe Israel off the ‘global political map’", that's consistent with other leaders and the regime ideology since the very start “We warn them [Zionists] that if a new war breaks out, it will result in their termination,” and there are no shortage of such quotes, and even concrete plans (for example by using Hamas and Hezbollah), one attempt of which we have witnessed in 2023 https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/hamas-strategy-to-destroy-israel-from-theory-into-practice-as-seen-in-captured-documents/ https://www.terrorism-info.org.il/en/hamas-strategy-to-destr... > active preparations that turn that intention into a positive danger >a situation in which the risk of defeat will be greatly increased if the fight is delayed We know independently that Iran has been enriching massive amounts of uranium to degrees of purity only suitable for nuclear weapons. See last announcement by the International Atomic Energy Agency. According to Israel there have been other advancements in the nuclear program which might lead them to a nuclear bomb

deleted 1y ago
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deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

_DeadFred_ 1y ago

1. Arming and organizing proxies to attack Israel for years is much more than just intention to do injury, it is actual. Those proxies continue attack on Israel (the latest missile launch at Israel was this week). How many missiles does a country have to eat before clause 1 if fulfilled? Any country besides Israel that number would be 1. In additional Iran does not recognise Israel's right to exist as a country and explicitly calls for Israel's destruction. 2. https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-857003 https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-857003 3. https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-857003 https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/iran-news/article-857003