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However, the fact that companies sell offensive cyber warfare software to governments is not new, and that specific company isn't either. There's also nothing

by breppp 1y ago

However, the fact that companies sell offensive cyber warfare software to governments is not new, and that specific company isn't either. There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia. And fighting terror or crime using software is valid. The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists, and what I'd like to know from this article was what was their motivation

kennywinker 1y ago
Their motivation is they are fascists. Like not in an “anything I don’t like is fascism” kinda way - literal fascists. If you’d like to know more about them, an article in the AP isn’t the right place to find more. But it is a good way to let people know what the US is funding in the world.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
  Your comment is about the US but their question about "motivation" was concerning Italy. As in, why is Italy spying on a journalist in a different EU country?
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    No my comment is about the italian gov being literal fascists. I wasn’t bothering to comment on the US gov
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
      I see, my mistake. I think I just got confused by some of the other statements in your comments.
  - neoromantique 1y ago
    I think by them being Italian (hint) he meant 'fascist' in quite literal sense.
    - chrisweekly 1y ago
      Hmm, you seem to be implying Italians are more likely to be considered fascists than are Americans. Is that because of the historical connection to Mussolini?
      - input_sh 1y ago
        It's because the descendants of original fascists are currently ruling Italy. Including Alessandra Mussolini (AKA Benito Mussolini's granddaughter), who's not in the same party as Meloni, but is in coalition with Meloni's party.
        chrisweekly 1y ago
        Thanks. (That explains all the downvotes for an innocent - albeit ignorant - Q.)
- breppp 1y ago
  That's a long shot from understanding "what the US is funding", because one company backed by a US VC sold the Italians something they misused. Concerning why this happened, you seem to know exactly why this happened. I for one am happy to be informed whether this is corruption, fascist crackdown, some unknown italian law that makes it all okay, actually the work of the previous government or maybe these journalists were actually baby kidnappers, whatever. That's pretty much why we need to read an article
- School-Cotton 1y ago
  What's your definition of fascist and what is your argument that Meloni's party is fascist? I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you -- genuinely curious about your perspective. The most damning bit in her Wikipedia article is this: "In 1992 Meloni joined the Youth Front, the youth wing of the Italian Social Movement (MSI), a neo-fascist political party founded in 1946 by followers of Italian fascism. She later became the national leader of Student Action, the student movement of the National Alliance (AN), a post-fascist party that became the MSI's legal successor in 1995 and moved towards national conservatism." But that does not necessarily mean she is herself a fascist, but rather that she was a member of various organizations that were originally founded by fascists then later moderated (roughly similar to the French FN/RN). On the other hand, lots of people you could fairly describe as fascist or far-right claim to not be so, so it's possible she genuinely is and the moderate turn of these parties is a sham. As someone who doesn't follow Italian politics I have no way of knowing which is the case.
  - forgotTheLast 1y ago
    > various organizations that were originally founded by fascists then later moderated (roughly similar to the French FN/RN). The reason those journalists were targeted is because they infiltrated one of those organizations and found that they were in fact still very much fascist behind closed doors (or at the very least racist and antisemitic).
    - orwin 1y ago
      Racist doesn't mean fascist, but you can't be fascist without being racist. As long as the executive doesn't control the judges, or insist on carrying a two speed justice, you can't really be fascist country. Ergo a fascist party is one which is at least nationalist, if not ethnonationalist, and insist on curbing the rule of law : X should be less equal than Y in front of the law (assuming the same social class).
      - ipaddr 1y ago
        You can be fascist without being racists. Not all countries contain only one genetic population.
propagandist 1y ago
Fighting crime, for example by spying on a WaPo columnist and then strangling him at a consular mission in Turkey and chopping up his body, to then dissolve it in acid. That's what this company's software is used for. Good luck to them shifting focus to the bad actors they choose to do business with.
- breppp 1y ago
  That is not the same company, and as I said above, you expect something else from Italy compared to the Saudis
  - Alive-in-2025 1y ago
    It's the same awful industry. This software is used to hurt journalists, to try to stop dissent. And kill people like the journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
    - shagmin 1y ago
      Not just same industry, but the same country of origin too actually.
      - larrled 1y ago
        Thankfully Asians don’t do spywares.
  - propagandist 1y ago
    I hope you expected something else from the Germans in 1939 too. Half the employees are from NSO and they're all from the same unit.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  That was going to happen without any software based on the history of these theocracies.
bee_rider 1y ago
If it was for no good reason, would that update your “nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government?” I do think western governments are generally better, but spying on journalists is bad.
- breppp 1y ago
  not yet, although I am curious why this specific technology is linked to so many scandals involving journalists. Is it simply because that journalists are interested in stories about journalists and that what makes the news, or a power corrupts scenario. I believe that similarly to phone tapping, this is a technology that in the wrong hands is dangerous, but it can be very effective against some threats that might make this worthwhile Western democracies have worked for a century after the invention of phone tapping, and even a few decades after inventing a much more dangerous technology, of massive government or corporate surveillance networks. Zero click exploit makes the news but it has no implication on most of the population, it's too expensive.
  - aziaziazi 1y ago
    > journalists are interested in stories about journalists > it has no implication on most of the population Journalistic content is still one of my main source of information that most of the population use to get informed, so my bet is many people do feel implicated somehow.
  - analog31 1y ago
    Surveillance of journalists is a way to discourage journalism, because it threatens both the journalists and their sources.
overfeed 1y ago
> However, the fact that companies sell offensive cyber warfare software to governments is not new Good thing the story is not about the companies or governments, but the journalists. The "this is not new" / "everyone knew about this" middlebrow dismissal adds nothing to any conversation, and falsely equates all hacking incidents, but the real story is about the clients, their motivations and the victims who are always different. > I'd like to know from this article was what was their motivation Wouldn't we all? Meloni's office had no comment, but the article gave enough breadcrumbs about the reporting of the victims that one can make an educated guess.
GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
> There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government i emphatically beg to differ with this statement
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  Spies have saved so many lives throughout history and they prevented nuclear Armageddon during the Cold War on many occasions. Therefore the more spies the better. Better spies than more covid research at wuhan.
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    > they prevented nuclear Armageddon during the Cold War on many occasions Spying created the conditions where we were on the brink of nuclear armageddon. That they also saved us from going over the brink isn’t really to their credit. Also, fyi - as best as we can ever know there was no lab leak. If you want a good summary of why not - have a listen to the most recent “If Books Could Kill” podcast episode.
    - mensetmanusman 1y ago
      5 minutes in, “Look how far away the breakout was from the lab!” Really? 6 minutes in “look at the viruses they were working on…” Can’t, it’s been scrubbed, thankfully some people saved some of the data before it was deleted. 7 minutes in: “never been a confirmed case of a lab worker getting covid” The documented black market of animals out of biolabs in China and the fact that it’s an aerosol virus might be important here…
      - kennywinker 1y ago
        > 5 minutes in, “Look how far away the breakout was from the lab!” > Really? https://maps.app.goo.gl/t6RUAjksL7caBQvZA?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/t6RUAjksL7caBQvZA?g_st=ic A 30min drive. So, a relevant point, especially since that’s basically the key piece of “evidence” for the lab leak. > 6 minutes in “look at the viruses they were working on…” > Can’t, it’s been scrubbed They published papers about what they were working on. That has not been scrubbed. > 7 minutes in: “never been a confirmed case of a lab worker getting covid” > The documented black market of animals out of biolabs in China and the fact that it’s an aerosol virus might be important here… Sure. That might be relevant. But it’s not evidence, it’s just an idea of how it might have happened. A wuhan lab worker getting covid early on would be evidence. Nobody can say definitively it wasn’t a lab leak, but what we can say is that we don’t have credible evidence that suggests it was - just a couple coincidences that aren’t actually super coincidental when you look closer. Like, say, a lab and a market 19km away in a city of 11 million people. For comparison - that’s a city with more people than NYC, and the lab is in Manhattan while the market is in Coney Island.
coldtea 1y ago
>There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia It's not like Iran or Zambia precisely to the degree it doesn't use such tools.
sim7c00 1y ago
but friendly countries hacking friendies is also not new. so in your view then it should not be written at all? remember belgacom? western governments are also in the war of information and minds. if they wouldnt wage it, we'd already have lost. sadly, this results in this kind of weirdness. and its incredibly hard or impossible to find their true motives or intent. especially if for example an investigation didnt turn up what they needed, an so seems like a random hack on a random person. it doesnt happen only to journalists. but when they are targeted its easier discovered because they might expect it more and look for it more. and when it does, because its related to press, everyones 'freedom of press' button is tripped and they get offended, sad, angry, whatever the button releases.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  > western governments are also in the war of information and minds. if they wouldnt wage it, we'd already have lost. Tangential, but this I strongly disagree with. The reason the US, and West more broadly, has been gradually, and now rapidly, losing this 'war' since the end of WW2 is precisely because we started waging it. And more generally the reason we started waging it is because we started behaving in an increasingly amoral fashion. Consider that US had absolutely no intelligence agency whatsoever until 1942. And the CIA did not exist before 1947. Then within 15 years they're proposing engaging in terrorist acts against Americans on American soil so we can blame it on another country and get involved in a war. [1] And that proposal was only stopped by a President who would then shortly thereafter be assassinated by a "deluded gunman." [2] For context on that snippet if you're unaware, Bush Sr was the former head of the CIA. From there it's shockingly just been a rapidly downhill slide. When you pretend to hold the moral high ground while acting fundamentally immoral, it leaves people far more jaded, and noncompliant, when they eventually 'wake up' to what's happening than if you just dropped the pretext and leveled with people. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOkTtpzoulc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOkTtpzoulc
DSingularity 1y ago
An incredible self awareness for you to write “There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia”. I wonder how Iran or Zambia feel about the west? The overthrow of their democracy. The colonial exploitations. Are those legit grievances in your eyes? Or are you a “take up the white mans burden” kind of person?
- breppp 1y ago
  I don't know how Iran feels about the west, but I for one am not keen about them hanging homosexuals on cranes, cutting hands of thieves, raping protestors in prison or taking random european tourist number 300 hostage in order to make finland cave-in on something. You might think the above is morally equivalent with whatever the state of Italy is doing, but I believe some governments and some cultures are better than others. Not because they are superior humans, but because human organizations and actions can be compared one to another, and there is at least for me, places I'd rather live in, and places I wouldn't
  - DSingularity 1y ago
    Who said that? How is this style of discussion even productive? We can all go back and forth about which nations abuse their people the most. You can point to LGBT and someone can point to American prisoner counts. Why does it matter? Stay on topic?
- woodruffw 1y ago
  I don't think you have to believe Western countries are morally blameless to think that Iran's use of spyware would probably have materially worse effects for whoever they spy on. It's clear to me at least that the West can both be blamed for the effects of colonialism and that the victims of colonialism can do plenty of bad things on their own.
  - DSingularity 1y ago
    Nobody is disputing that at all. That’s just a byproduct of zero-sum games and at least the fact that victims of abuse tend to grow into abusers themselves. The problem is the blanket statement which effectively becomes “the ordained group of humans can have these tools while the others we judge as less-than and prohibit”. The more they talk the more they reveal about their views which are either outright racist or extremely disingenuous when it comes to obvious historical contexts.
tehjoker 1y ago
Actually, there is a lot wrong with selling intelligence tools to western governments. They are doing some of the most evil shit in the world and are complicit in genocide at the moment. No one should be buying Israeli consumer goods, let alone weapons or security tools as part of Boycotts, Divestment, and Sanctions.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  Everyone is complicit in a globalized world. China kills Ukrainians daily with their tech.
FpUser 1y ago
>"There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government" The king can do no wrong. What a pinnacle of arrogance. >"The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists" Welcome to a real world
Xelbair 1y ago
are you... serious? no I'm genuinely curious - because no matter who you sell it to it will be used against its own populace - look at bloody PRISM(mass data collection of internet traffic in US by NSA in case you weren't aware), Echelon(older project targeted at radio transmissions), 5eyes(US, UK, AUS, NZ, CN asking each other to spy on their own citizens as a loophole) .. or any other scandal in EU when it leaked that such spyware was used against journalists investigating government corruption. Or in Mexico, or anywhere else. How you are surprised that "western government" might attack journalists when there has been proof of them doing that for years?!
keybored 1y ago
> There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia. Yes, because Western ones are the good governments (looking at Meloni). > And fighting terror or crime using software is valid. The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists, and what I'd like to know from this article was what was their motivation Huh, it’s surprising that Western governments would spy on journalists. But they are the good guys? What was their motivation.
Alive-in-2025 1y ago
It is absolutely wrong to sell that software. It is mostly used to harass journalists and people advocating against dictatorial regimes. That is why there are endless headlines and articles about it being used against orgs like greenpeace, or people criticizing a govt. The claim was always we want to be able to use it against terrorists or real criminals - but at the least we know it is very frequently used to try to stop critics of governments. It is immoral. I'd never hire someone who worked on such software or for one of those firms. We should have a movement that declares this.
nashashmi 1y ago
The spy companies sells to non western companies also like UAE and Saudi Arabia, with the approval of Israeli government. And Israeli company selling software to spy on journalist tells you everything you need to know about the whole “western” concept. It’s a mirage of morality.
guelo 1y ago
> fighting terror using software is valid Only if you want to live in an Israeli-type society where a certain group is inherently suspicious and have no rights. Americans should be repulsed by that. That's why I don't buy the judeo-christian propaganda about how our values are the same. The western values are justice and due process and "all men are created equal", zionist values are "we are god's chosen", no holds barred "war on terror" with no due process, invoking religous amalek to commit genocide. These are the values of an ancient desert tribe not western civilization. Zionist values have been forced onto the west over the last 30 years as Israel tries to rope us into more middle eastern wars, but they don't derive from western enlightenment philosophy.
- FridayoLeary 1y ago
  > where a certain group is inherently suspicious and have no rights what group? If you mean arabs, israeli arabs enjoy full citizenship rights. > zionist values are "we are god's chosen", no holds barred "war on terror" with no due process, invoking religous amalek to commit genocide. That's some very specific claims. I challenge you to show any evidence for this. >Zionist values have been forced onto the west over the last 30 years as Israel tries to rope us into more middle eastern wars, but they don't derive from western enlightenment philosophy. ??? What?
  - kennywinker 1y ago
    > what group? If you mean arabs, israeli arabs enjoy full citizenship rights. Disingenuous. The existence of arab israelis who enjoy some degree of equality within israel doesn’t refute the existence of an apartheid. A gazan can’t just decide they’re cool with israel and travel freely around the country they are occupied within.
    - FridayoLeary 1y ago
      >who enjoy some degree of equality That's a malicious misrepresentation. They enjoy the same rights and protections as any other citizen according to the law. The rest of your comment is down to some hideously complicated political arrangements peace treaties etc where most arabs living in israel prefer their own state and citizenship. At the least it 's an extremely strange apartheid when 2 million arabs are not part of it. Also as far as i can tell there has been very limited israeli presence in Gaza between 2006-23. If you insist that your thread of logic is still correct you have to continue down that path and say that Egypt is also an apartheid state and they are occupying gaza as well.
KennyBlanken 1y ago
> The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists You might want to look up Karen Silkwood, who was likely murdered by either her employer or US government agents, while driving to meet with a reporter and her boyfriend. If you think the US government hasn't murdered any journalists in the last 70 years or so, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

by breppp 1y ago

kennywinker 1y ago

Their motivation is they are fascists. Like not in an “anything I don’t like is fascism” kinda way - literal fascists. If you’d like to know more about them, an article in the AP isn’t the right place to find more. But it is a good way to let people know what the US is funding in the world.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
Your comment is about the US but their question about "motivation" was concerning Italy. As in, why is Italy spying on a journalist in a different EU country?
- kennywinker 1y ago
  No my comment is about the italian gov being literal fascists. I wasn’t bothering to comment on the US gov
  - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
    I see, my mistake. I think I just got confused by some of the other statements in your comments.
- neoromantique 1y ago
  I think by them being Italian (hint) he meant 'fascist' in quite literal sense.
  - chrisweekly 1y ago
    Hmm, you seem to be implying Italians are more likely to be considered fascists than are Americans. Is that because of the historical connection to Mussolini?
    - input_sh 1y ago
      It's because the descendants of original fascists are currently ruling Italy. Including Alessandra Mussolini (AKA Benito Mussolini's granddaughter), who's not in the same party as Meloni, but is in coalition with Meloni's party.
      - chrisweekly 1y ago
        Thanks. (That explains all the downvotes for an innocent - albeit ignorant - Q.)
breppp 1y ago
That's a long shot from understanding "what the US is funding", because one company backed by a US VC sold the Italians something they misused. Concerning why this happened, you seem to know exactly why this happened. I for one am happy to be informed whether this is corruption, fascist crackdown, some unknown italian law that makes it all okay, actually the work of the previous government or maybe these journalists were actually baby kidnappers, whatever. That's pretty much why we need to read an article
School-Cotton 1y ago
What's your definition of fascist and what is your argument that Meloni's party is fascist? I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you -- genuinely curious about your perspective. The most damning bit in her Wikipedia article is this: "In 1992 Meloni joined the Youth Front, the youth wing of the Italian Social Movement (MSI), a neo-fascist political party founded in 1946 by followers of Italian fascism. She later became the national leader of Student Action, the student movement of the National Alliance (AN), a post-fascist party that became the MSI's legal successor in 1995 and moved towards national conservatism." But that does not necessarily mean she is herself a fascist, but rather that she was a member of various organizations that were originally founded by fascists then later moderated (roughly similar to the French FN/RN). On the other hand, lots of people you could fairly describe as fascist or far-right claim to not be so, so it's possible she genuinely is and the moderate turn of these parties is a sham. As someone who doesn't follow Italian politics I have no way of knowing which is the case.
- forgotTheLast 1y ago
  > various organizations that were originally founded by fascists then later moderated (roughly similar to the French FN/RN). The reason those journalists were targeted is because they infiltrated one of those organizations and found that they were in fact still very much fascist behind closed doors (or at the very least racist and antisemitic).
  - orwin 1y ago
    Racist doesn't mean fascist, but you can't be fascist without being racist. As long as the executive doesn't control the judges, or insist on carrying a two speed justice, you can't really be fascist country. Ergo a fascist party is one which is at least nationalist, if not ethnonationalist, and insist on curbing the rule of law : X should be less equal than Y in front of the law (assuming the same social class).
    - ipaddr 1y ago
      You can be fascist without being racists. Not all countries contain only one genetic population.

propagandist 1y ago

Fighting crime, for example by spying on a WaPo columnist and then strangling him at a consular mission in Turkey and chopping up his body, to then dissolve it in acid. That's what this company's software is used for. Good luck to them shifting focus to the bad actors they choose to do business with.

breppp 1y ago
That is not the same company, and as I said above, you expect something else from Italy compared to the Saudis
- Alive-in-2025 1y ago
  It's the same awful industry. This software is used to hurt journalists, to try to stop dissent. And kill people like the journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
  - shagmin 1y ago
    Not just same industry, but the same country of origin too actually.
    - larrled 1y ago
      Thankfully Asians don’t do spywares.
- propagandist 1y ago
  I hope you expected something else from the Germans in 1939 too. Half the employees are from NSO and they're all from the same unit.
mensetmanusman 1y ago
That was going to happen without any software based on the history of these theocracies.

bee_rider 1y ago

If it was for no good reason, would that update your “nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government?” I do think western governments are generally better, but spying on journalists is bad.

breppp 1y ago
not yet, although I am curious why this specific technology is linked to so many scandals involving journalists. Is it simply because that journalists are interested in stories about journalists and that what makes the news, or a power corrupts scenario. I believe that similarly to phone tapping, this is a technology that in the wrong hands is dangerous, but it can be very effective against some threats that might make this worthwhile Western democracies have worked for a century after the invention of phone tapping, and even a few decades after inventing a much more dangerous technology, of massive government or corporate surveillance networks. Zero click exploit makes the news but it has no implication on most of the population, it's too expensive.
- aziaziazi 1y ago
  > journalists are interested in stories about journalists > it has no implication on most of the population Journalistic content is still one of my main source of information that most of the population use to get informed, so my bet is many people do feel implicated somehow.
- analog31 1y ago
  Surveillance of journalists is a way to discourage journalism, because it threatens both the journalists and their sources.

overfeed 1y ago

> However, the fact that companies sell offensive cyber warfare software to governments is not new Good thing the story is not about the companies or governments, but the journalists. The "this is not new" / "everyone knew about this" middlebrow dismissal adds nothing to any conversation, and falsely equates all hacking incidents, but the real story is about the clients, their motivations and the victims who are always different. > I'd like to know from this article was what was their motivation Wouldn't we all? Meloni's office had no comment, but the article gave enough breadcrumbs about the reporting of the victims that one can make an educated guess.

GuinansEyebrows 1y ago

> There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government i emphatically beg to differ with this statement

mensetmanusman 1y ago
Spies have saved so many lives throughout history and they prevented nuclear Armageddon during the Cold War on many occasions. Therefore the more spies the better. Better spies than more covid research at wuhan.
- kennywinker 1y ago
  > they prevented nuclear Armageddon during the Cold War on many occasions Spying created the conditions where we were on the brink of nuclear armageddon. That they also saved us from going over the brink isn’t really to their credit. Also, fyi - as best as we can ever know there was no lab leak. If you want a good summary of why not - have a listen to the most recent “If Books Could Kill” podcast episode.
  - mensetmanusman 1y ago
    5 minutes in, “Look how far away the breakout was from the lab!” Really? 6 minutes in “look at the viruses they were working on…” Can’t, it’s been scrubbed, thankfully some people saved some of the data before it was deleted. 7 minutes in: “never been a confirmed case of a lab worker getting covid” The documented black market of animals out of biolabs in China and the fact that it’s an aerosol virus might be important here…
    - kennywinker 1y ago
      > 5 minutes in, “Look how far away the breakout was from the lab!” > Really? https://maps.app.goo.gl/t6RUAjksL7caBQvZA?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/t6RUAjksL7caBQvZA?g_st=ic A 30min drive. So, a relevant point, especially since that’s basically the key piece of “evidence” for the lab leak. > 6 minutes in “look at the viruses they were working on…” > Can’t, it’s been scrubbed They published papers about what they were working on. That has not been scrubbed. > 7 minutes in: “never been a confirmed case of a lab worker getting covid” > The documented black market of animals out of biolabs in China and the fact that it’s an aerosol virus might be important here… Sure. That might be relevant. But it’s not evidence, it’s just an idea of how it might have happened. A wuhan lab worker getting covid early on would be evidence. Nobody can say definitively it wasn’t a lab leak, but what we can say is that we don’t have credible evidence that suggests it was - just a couple coincidences that aren’t actually super coincidental when you look closer. Like, say, a lab and a market 19km away in a city of 11 million people. For comparison - that’s a city with more people than NYC, and the lab is in Manhattan while the market is in Coney Island.

coldtea 1y ago

>There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia It's not like Iran or Zambia precisely to the degree it doesn't use such tools.

sim7c00 1y ago

but friendly countries hacking friendies is also not new. so in your view then it should not be written at all? remember belgacom? western governments are also in the war of information and minds. if they wouldnt wage it, we'd already have lost. sadly, this results in this kind of weirdness. and its incredibly hard or impossible to find their true motives or intent. especially if for example an investigation didnt turn up what they needed, an so seems like a random hack on a random person. it doesnt happen only to journalists. but when they are targeted its easier discovered because they might expect it more and look for it more. and when it does, because its related to press, everyones 'freedom of press' button is tripped and they get offended, sad, angry, whatever the button releases.

somenameforme 1y ago
> western governments are also in the war of information and minds. if they wouldnt wage it, we'd already have lost. Tangential, but this I strongly disagree with. The reason the US, and West more broadly, has been gradually, and now rapidly, losing this 'war' since the end of WW2 is precisely because we started waging it. And more generally the reason we started waging it is because we started behaving in an increasingly amoral fashion. Consider that US had absolutely no intelligence agency whatsoever until 1942. And the CIA did not exist before 1947. Then within 15 years they're proposing engaging in terrorist acts against Americans on American soil so we can blame it on another country and get involved in a war. [1] And that proposal was only stopped by a President who would then shortly thereafter be assassinated by a "deluded gunman." [2] For context on that snippet if you're unaware, Bush Sr was the former head of the CIA. From there it's shockingly just been a rapidly downhill slide. When you pretend to hold the moral high ground while acting fundamentally immoral, it leaves people far more jaded, and noncompliant, when they eventually 'wake up' to what's happening than if you just dropped the pretext and leveled with people. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOkTtpzoulc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOkTtpzoulc

DSingularity 1y ago

An incredible self awareness for you to write “There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia”. I wonder how Iran or Zambia feel about the west? The overthrow of their democracy. The colonial exploitations. Are those legit grievances in your eyes? Or are you a “take up the white mans burden” kind of person?

breppp 1y ago
I don't know how Iran feels about the west, but I for one am not keen about them hanging homosexuals on cranes, cutting hands of thieves, raping protestors in prison or taking random european tourist number 300 hostage in order to make finland cave-in on something. You might think the above is morally equivalent with whatever the state of Italy is doing, but I believe some governments and some cultures are better than others. Not because they are superior humans, but because human organizations and actions can be compared one to another, and there is at least for me, places I'd rather live in, and places I wouldn't
- DSingularity 1y ago
  Who said that? How is this style of discussion even productive? We can all go back and forth about which nations abuse their people the most. You can point to LGBT and someone can point to American prisoner counts. Why does it matter? Stay on topic?
woodruffw 1y ago
I don't think you have to believe Western countries are morally blameless to think that Iran's use of spyware would probably have materially worse effects for whoever they spy on. It's clear to me at least that the West can both be blamed for the effects of colonialism and that the victims of colonialism can do plenty of bad things on their own.
- DSingularity 1y ago
  Nobody is disputing that at all. That’s just a byproduct of zero-sum games and at least the fact that victims of abuse tend to grow into abusers themselves. The problem is the blanket statement which effectively becomes “the ordained group of humans can have these tools while the others we judge as less-than and prohibit”. The more they talk the more they reveal about their views which are either outright racist or extremely disingenuous when it comes to obvious historical contexts.

tehjoker 1y ago

Actually, there is a lot wrong with selling intelligence tools to western governments. They are doing some of the most evil shit in the world and are complicit in genocide at the moment. No one should be buying Israeli consumer goods, let alone weapons or security tools as part of Boycotts, Divestment, and Sanctions.

mensetmanusman 1y ago
Everyone is complicit in a globalized world. China kills Ukrainians daily with their tech.

FpUser 1y ago

>"There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government" The king can do no wrong. What a pinnacle of arrogance. >"The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists" Welcome to a real world

Xelbair 1y ago

are you... serious? no I'm genuinely curious - because no matter who you sell it to it will be used against its own populace - look at bloody PRISM(mass data collection of internet traffic in US by NSA in case you weren't aware), Echelon(older project targeted at radio transmissions), 5eyes(US, UK, AUS, NZ, CN asking each other to spy on their own citizens as a loophole) .. or any other scandal in EU when it leaked that such spyware was used against journalists investigating government corruption. Or in Mexico, or anywhere else. How you are surprised that "western government" might attack journalists when there has been proof of them doing that for years?!

keybored 1y ago

> There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia. Yes, because Western ones are the good governments (looking at Meloni). > And fighting terror or crime using software is valid. The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists, and what I'd like to know from this article was what was their motivation Huh, it’s surprising that Western governments would spy on journalists. But they are the good guys? What was their motivation.

Alive-in-2025 1y ago

It is absolutely wrong to sell that software. It is mostly used to harass journalists and people advocating against dictatorial regimes. That is why there are endless headlines and articles about it being used against orgs like greenpeace, or people criticizing a govt. The claim was always we want to be able to use it against terrorists or real criminals - but at the least we know it is very frequently used to try to stop critics of governments. It is immoral. I'd never hire someone who worked on such software or for one of those firms. We should have a movement that declares this.

nashashmi 1y ago

The spy companies sells to non western companies also like UAE and Saudi Arabia, with the approval of Israeli government. And Israeli company selling software to spy on journalist tells you everything you need to know about the whole “western” concept. It’s a mirage of morality.

guelo 1y ago

> fighting terror using software is valid Only if you want to live in an Israeli-type society where a certain group is inherently suspicious and have no rights. Americans should be repulsed by that. That's why I don't buy the judeo-christian propaganda about how our values are the same. The western values are justice and due process and "all men are created equal", zionist values are "we are god's chosen", no holds barred "war on terror" with no due process, invoking religous amalek to commit genocide. These are the values of an ancient desert tribe not western civilization. Zionist values have been forced onto the west over the last 30 years as Israel tries to rope us into more middle eastern wars, but they don't derive from western enlightenment philosophy.

FridayoLeary 1y ago
> where a certain group is inherently suspicious and have no rights what group? If you mean arabs, israeli arabs enjoy full citizenship rights. > zionist values are "we are god's chosen", no holds barred "war on terror" with no due process, invoking religous amalek to commit genocide. That's some very specific claims. I challenge you to show any evidence for this. >Zionist values have been forced onto the west over the last 30 years as Israel tries to rope us into more middle eastern wars, but they don't derive from western enlightenment philosophy. ??? What?
- kennywinker 1y ago
  > what group? If you mean arabs, israeli arabs enjoy full citizenship rights. Disingenuous. The existence of arab israelis who enjoy some degree of equality within israel doesn’t refute the existence of an apartheid. A gazan can’t just decide they’re cool with israel and travel freely around the country they are occupied within.
  - FridayoLeary 1y ago
    >who enjoy some degree of equality That's a malicious misrepresentation. They enjoy the same rights and protections as any other citizen according to the law. The rest of your comment is down to some hideously complicated political arrangements peace treaties etc where most arabs living in israel prefer their own state and citizenship. At the least it 's an extremely strange apartheid when 2 million arabs are not part of it. Also as far as i can tell there has been very limited israeli presence in Gaza between 2006-23. If you insist that your thread of logic is still correct you have to continue down that path and say that Egypt is also an apartheid state and they are occupying gaza as well.

KennyBlanken 1y ago

> The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists You might want to look up Karen Silkwood, who was likely murdered by either her employer or US government agents, while driving to meet with a reporter and her boyfriend. If you think the US government hasn't murdered any journalists in the last 70 years or so, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.