5 ms·

What is this massive environmental harm? That sounds like hyperbole.

ksenzee 1y ago
They’re restarting coal-fired power plants to run AI datacenters. I don’t know what your personal threshold is for “massive” environmental harm, but that meets mine.
- baggy_trough 1y ago
  What's a specific example of that?
  - svnt 1y ago
    It has been widely reported. Here is an example not of a coal-fired but diesel and gas mobile power sources. If you spend time looking you will have no trouble finding sources. > Last week, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) issued a rule clarification allowing the use of some mobile gas and diesel power sources for data centers. In a statement accompanying the rule, EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin claimed that the Biden administration's focus on addressing climate change had hampered AI development. > "The Trump administration is taking action to rectify the previous administration's actions to weaken the reliability of the electricity grid and our ability to maintain our leadership on artificial intelligence," Zeldin said. "This is the first, and certainly not the last step, and I look forward to continue working with artificial intelligence and data center companies and utilities to resolve any outstanding challenges and make the U.S. the AI capital of the world." https://www.newsweek.com/ai-race-fossil-powered-generators-are-data-centers-dirty-secret-2068791 https://www.newsweek.com/ai-race-fossil-powered-generators-a...
    - baggy_trough 1y ago
      I spent some time and could not find a specific example. You haven't shown one here, either.
      - svnt 1y ago
        Here is one: https://www.utilitydive.com/news/doe-coal-fired-power-plant-consumers-energy-miso-emergency/748972/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/doe-coal-fired-power-plant-... Here is another: https://www.utilitydive.com/news/trump-coal-executive-order-doe-power-plants/744846/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/trump-coal-executive-order-...
        baggy_trough 1y ago
        Sorry, but they simply are not.
        jimstr 1y ago
        What about https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/apr/24/elon-musk-xai-memphis https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/apr/24/elon-musk...
        svnt 1y ago
        FTA: > In another move, DOE on Tuesday said it was offering loan guarantees for coal-fired power plant projects, such as upgrading energy infrastructure to restart operations or operate more efficiently or at a higher output. Please elaborate.
        coryrc 1y ago
        trump stooge activities cannot be blamed on data centers. The relevant technical authorities did not want this.
        svnt 1y ago
        What are you talking about? This is literally the only mechanism to allow coal-fired plants to avoid sunsetting on schedule. Who are the “relevant technical authorities”?
        coryrc 1y ago
        "DOE issued the emergency order without a request from the plant owner, transmission provider or grid operator"
  - autoexec 1y ago
    https://www.iwf.org/2025/02/13/as-power-demand-rises-existing-units-stay-online-in-georgia/ https://www.iwf.org/2025/02/13/as-power-demand-rises-existin... https://www.alleghenyfront.org/homer-city-pennsylvania-gas-plant-data-center-ai/ https://www.alleghenyfront.org/homer-city-pennsylvania-gas-p... https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-should-restart-shuttered-coal-units-interior-secretary-tells-bloomberg-2025-03-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-should-restart-sh...
gknoy 1y ago
Training AI models uses a large amount of energy (according to what I've read / headlines I've seen /etc), and increases water usage. [0] I don't have a lot to offer as proof, merely that this is an idea that I have encountered enough that I was suprised you hadn't heard of it. I did a very cursory bit of googling, so the quality + dodginess distribution is a bit wild, but there appear to be indiustry reports [2, page 20] that support this: """ [G]lobal data centre electricity use reached 415 TWh in 2024, or 1.5 per cent of global electricity consumption.... While these figures include all types of data centres, the growing subset of data centres focused on AI are particularly energy intensive. AI-focused data centres can consume as much electricity as aluminium smelters but are more geographically concentrated. The rapid expansion of AI is driving a significant surge in global electricity demand, posing new challenges for sustainability. Data centre electricity consumption has been growing at 12 per cent per year since 2017, outpacing total electricity consumption by a factor of four. """ The numbers are about data center power use in total, but AI seems to be one of the bigger driving forces behind that growth, so it seems plausible that there is some harm. 0: https://news.mit.edu/2025/explained-generative-ai-environmental-impact-0117 https://news.mit.edu/2025/explained-generative-ai-environmen... 1: https://www.itu.int/en/mediacentre/Pages/PR-2025-06-05-greening-digital-companies-report.aspx https://www.itu.int/en/mediacentre/Pages/PR-2025-06-05-green... 2: (cf. page 20) https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Environment/Pages/Publications/GDC-25.aspx https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Environment/Pages/Publications/...
- baggy_trough 1y ago
  I agree that there is some incremental electricity usage. I do not think it can be characterized fairly as "massive environmental harm".
  - autoexec 1y ago
    As an example, Ren and his colleagues calculated the emissions from training a large language model, or LLM, at the scale of Meta’s Llama-3.1, an advanced open-weight LLM released by the owner of Facebook in July to compete with leading proprietary models like OpenAI's GPT-4. The study found that producing the electricity to train this model produced an air pollution equivalent of more than 10,000 round trips by car between Los Angeles and New York City. (https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2024/12/09/ais-deadly-air-pollution-toll https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2024/12/09/ais-deadly-air-poll...) see also: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/news-ai-data-centers-drought/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/news-ai-data-centers-dr... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-computer-scientist-breaks-down-generative-ais-hefty-carbon-footprint/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-computer-scient...

They’re restarting coal-fired power plants to run AI datacenters. I don’t know what your personal threshold is for “massive” environmental harm, but that meets mine.

baggy_trough 1y ago
What's a specific example of that?
- svnt 1y ago
  It has been widely reported. Here is an example not of a coal-fired but diesel and gas mobile power sources. If you spend time looking you will have no trouble finding sources. > Last week, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) issued a rule clarification allowing the use of some mobile gas and diesel power sources for data centers. In a statement accompanying the rule, EPA Administrator Lee Zeldin claimed that the Biden administration's focus on addressing climate change had hampered AI development. > "The Trump administration is taking action to rectify the previous administration's actions to weaken the reliability of the electricity grid and our ability to maintain our leadership on artificial intelligence," Zeldin said. "This is the first, and certainly not the last step, and I look forward to continue working with artificial intelligence and data center companies and utilities to resolve any outstanding challenges and make the U.S. the AI capital of the world." https://www.newsweek.com/ai-race-fossil-powered-generators-are-data-centers-dirty-secret-2068791 https://www.newsweek.com/ai-race-fossil-powered-generators-a...
  - baggy_trough 1y ago
    I spent some time and could not find a specific example. You haven't shown one here, either.
    - svnt 1y ago
      Here is one: https://www.utilitydive.com/news/doe-coal-fired-power-plant-consumers-energy-miso-emergency/748972/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/doe-coal-fired-power-plant-... Here is another: https://www.utilitydive.com/news/trump-coal-executive-order-doe-power-plants/744846/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/trump-coal-executive-order-...
      - baggy_trough 1y ago
        Sorry, but they simply are not.
        jimstr 1y ago
        What about https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/apr/24/elon-musk-xai-memphis https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2025/apr/24/elon-musk...
        svnt 1y ago
        FTA: > In another move, DOE on Tuesday said it was offering loan guarantees for coal-fired power plant projects, such as upgrading energy infrastructure to restart operations or operate more efficiently or at a higher output. Please elaborate.
      - coryrc 1y ago
        trump stooge activities cannot be blamed on data centers. The relevant technical authorities did not want this.
        svnt 1y ago
        What are you talking about? This is literally the only mechanism to allow coal-fired plants to avoid sunsetting on schedule. Who are the “relevant technical authorities”?
        coryrc 1y ago
        "DOE issued the emergency order without a request from the plant owner, transmission provider or grid operator"
- autoexec 1y ago
  https://www.iwf.org/2025/02/13/as-power-demand-rises-existing-units-stay-online-in-georgia/ https://www.iwf.org/2025/02/13/as-power-demand-rises-existin... https://www.alleghenyfront.org/homer-city-pennsylvania-gas-plant-data-center-ai/ https://www.alleghenyfront.org/homer-city-pennsylvania-gas-p... https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-should-restart-shuttered-coal-units-interior-secretary-tells-bloomberg-2025-03-10/ https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-should-restart-sh...

gknoy 1y ago

Training AI models uses a large amount of energy (according to what I've read / headlines I've seen /etc), and increases water usage. [0] I don't have a lot to offer as proof, merely that this is an idea that I have encountered enough that I was suprised you hadn't heard of it. I did a very cursory bit of googling, so the quality + dodginess distribution is a bit wild, but there appear to be indiustry reports [2, page 20] that support this: """ [G]lobal data centre electricity use reached 415 TWh in 2024, or 1.5 per cent of global electricity consumption.... While these figures include all types of data centres, the growing subset of data centres focused on AI are particularly energy intensive. AI-focused data centres can consume as much electricity as aluminium smelters but are more geographically concentrated. The rapid expansion of AI is driving a significant surge in global electricity demand, posing new challenges for sustainability. Data centre electricity consumption has been growing at 12 per cent per year since 2017, outpacing total electricity consumption by a factor of four. """ The numbers are about data center power use in total, but AI seems to be one of the bigger driving forces behind that growth, so it seems plausible that there is some harm. 0: https://news.mit.edu/2025/explained-generative-ai-environmental-impact-0117 https://news.mit.edu/2025/explained-generative-ai-environmen... 1: https://www.itu.int/en/mediacentre/Pages/PR-2025-06-05-greening-digital-companies-report.aspx https://www.itu.int/en/mediacentre/Pages/PR-2025-06-05-green... 2: (cf. page 20) https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Environment/Pages/Publications/GDC-25.aspx https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-D/Environment/Pages/Publications/...

baggy_trough 1y ago
I agree that there is some incremental electricity usage. I do not think it can be characterized fairly as "massive environmental harm".
- autoexec 1y ago
  As an example, Ren and his colleagues calculated the emissions from training a large language model, or LLM, at the scale of Meta’s Llama-3.1, an advanced open-weight LLM released by the owner of Facebook in July to compete with leading proprietary models like OpenAI's GPT-4. The study found that producing the electricity to train this model produced an air pollution equivalent of more than 10,000 round trips by car between Los Angeles and New York City. (https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2024/12/09/ais-deadly-air-pollution-toll https://news.ucr.edu/articles/2024/12/09/ais-deadly-air-poll...) see also: https://www.techrepublic.com/article/news-ai-data-centers-drought/ https://www.techrepublic.com/article/news-ai-data-centers-dr... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-computer-scientist-breaks-down-generative-ais-hefty-carbon-footprint/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-computer-scient...