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"EU is leading in regulation", they say. I don't know what they are thinking.
by atemerev 1y ago
"EU is leading in regulation", they say.
I don't know what they are thinking.
- micromacrofoot 1y agoprobably some silly thing like "people should have more rights and protections"
- atemerev 1y agoI've yet to find any rights and protections in these cookie banners.
- saubeidl 1y agoThe cookie banners are corps trying to circumvent the rights and protections. If they actually went by the spirit of the protections, the cookie banners wouldn't be needed. Your ire is misdirected.
- yeahforsureman 1y agoAre you sure? The ePrivacy Directive requires a (GDPR-level) consent for just placing the cookie, unless it's strictly necessary for the provision of the “service”. The way EU regulators interpret this, even web analytics falls outside the necessity exception and therefore requires consent. So as long as the user doesn't and/or is not able to automatically signal consent (or non-consent) eg via general browser-level settings, how can you obtain it without trying to get it from the user on a per-site basis somehow? (And no, DNT doesn't help since it's an opt-out, not an opt-in mechanism.)
- exyi 1y agoEveryone I know of will try to click "reject all unnecessary cookies", and you don't need the dialog for the necessary ones. You can therefore simply remove the dialog and the tracking, simplifying your code and improving your users' experience. Can tracking the fraction which misclicks even give some useful data?
- yeahforsureman 1y agoMy point was that according to the current interpretation, if they rely on cookies, user analytics (even simple visitor stats where no personal data is actually processed) are not considered "necessary" and are therefore not exempt from the cookie consent obligation under the ePrivacy Directive. The reason why personal data processing is irrelevant is that the cookie consent requirement itself is based on the pre-GDPR ePrivacy Directive which requires, as a rule, consent merely for saving cookies on the client device (subject to some exceptions, including the one discussed). So you need a consent for all but the most crucial cookies without which the site/service wouldn't be able to function, like session cookies for managing signed-in state etc. (The reason why you started to see consent banners really only after GDPR came to force is at least in part due to the fact that the ePrivacy Directive refers to the Data Protection Directive (DPD) for the standard of consent, and after DPD was replaced by GDPR, the arguably more stringent GDPR consent standard was applied, making it unfeasible to rely on some concept of implied consent or the like.)
- mhitza 1y agoUser analytics that require cookies, sounds like tracking to me. > like session cookies for managing signed-in state etc. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but are you saying that consent is required for session cookies? Because that is not the case, at all. > (25) However, such devices, for instance so-called "cookies", can be a legitimate and useful tool, for example, in analysing the effectiveness of website design and advertising, and in verifying the identity of users engaged in on-line transactions. Where such devices, for instance cookies, are intended for a legitimate purpose, such as to facilitate the provision of information society services, their use should be allowed on condition that users are provided with clear and precise information in accordance with Directive 95/46/EC about the purposes of cookies or similar devices so as to ensure that users are made aware of information being placed on the terminal equipment they are using. Users should have the opportunity to refuse to have a cookie or similar device stored on their terminal equipment. This is particularly important where users other than the original user have access to the terminal equipment and thereby to any data containing privacy-sensitive information stored on such equipment. Information and the right to refuse may be offered once for the use of various devices to be installed on the user's terminal equipment during the same connection and also covering any further use that may be made of those devices during subsequent connections. The methods for giving information, offering a right to refuse or requesting consent should be made as user-friendly as possible. Access to specific website content may still be made conditional on the well-informed acceptance of a cookie or similar device, if it is used for a legitimate purpose. https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2002/58/oj/eng https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/2002/58/oj/eng You should inform users about any private data you would be storing in a cookie. But this can be a small infobox on your page with no button. When storing other type of information, the "cookie" problem needs to be seen from the perspective of shared devices. You know, the times before, when you might forget to log out at an internet cafe or clear your cookies containing password and other things they shouldn't. This is a dated approach at looking at the problem (most people have their own computing devices today, their phone), but still applicable (classrooms, and family shared devices).
- micromacrofoot 1y agothere are analytics providers that don't require third party cookies, it's not hard to switch
- yeahforsureman 1y agoThe cookie consent provision under the ePrivacy Directive doesn't care whether they're first- or third-party. Actually, the way it's been worded, you'd arguably need a consent for (strictly non-"necessary") use of eg local storage, too — afaik this hasn't really come up in regulatory practice or case law, but may be more due to regulators' modest technical expertise or priorities. A conceptually different matter altogether is consent (possibly) needed under GDPR for various kinds of personal data processing involving the use of cookies (ie not just the placement of cookies as such) and other technologies for tracking, targeting and the like. That's why you see cookie banners with detailed purposes and eg massive lists of vendors (since they can be considered "recipients" of the user's personal data under GDPR). In this context, a valid consent (and the information you have to provide to obtain it) is required (at least) when consent is the only feasible legal basis of the ones available under Art 6 GDPR for the personal data processing activities in question. This is where the national regulators have taken strict stances especially regarding ad targeting and other activities usually involving cross-site tracking, for example, deeming that the only feasible basis for those activities would be consent (ie "opt-in") — instead of, in particular, "legitimate interests" which would enable opt-out-like mechanisms instead. This is the legal context of looking critically at 3rd-party cookies, but unfortunately, for the reasons mentioned above, getting rid of such cookies might still not be enough to avoid the minimal base cookie consent requirement when you use eg analytics... :( It's pretty ridiculous, I know, and it's a bummer they scrapped the long-planned and -negotiated ePrivacy Regulation which was meant to replace the old ePrivacy Directive and, among other things, update the weird old cookie consent provision.
- saubeidl 1y agoAs you said yourself, analytics are not necessary. It's corpos trying to invade our privacy.
- micromacrofoot 1y agocookie banners are malicious compliance while we head towards the death of cross-site cookies, they are indeed a poor implementation but the legislation that lead to them did not come up with it did you really prefer when companies were selling your data to third parties and didn't have to ask you?
- sunaookami 1y agoDo you really think clicking "Reject non-essential cookies" does something?
- micromacrofoot 1y agoshow me a single example that doesn't
- __alexs 1y agoEU regulation is often "you can not have the cool thing" not "the cool thing must be operated equitably". I think they are more interested in protecting old money than in protecting people.
- saubeidl 1y agoCan you name specific examples? Otherwise, this just sounds like inflammatory polemic.
- micromacrofoot 1y agoI think usb-c and third party app stores are pretty cool
- umbra07 1y agoI think the government shouldn't be legislating that companies must use a specific USB connector. Realistically the legislation was only targeting Apple. If consumers want USB-C, then they can vote with their wallets and buy an Android, which is a reasonable alternative.
- micromacrofoot 1y agoWe've had multiple USB standards for decades with no end in sight. Apple was targeted because they have the most high-profile proprietary connector and they were generally using it to screw consumers. Good riddance.
- bobxmax 1y agoRights and protections that have benefited heavily from an economy built on the alliance with the US. If it weren't for American help and trade post-WW2, Europe would be a Belarusian backwater and is fast heading back in that direction. Countries like Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal, etc. show the future of Europe as it slowly stagnates and becomes a museum that can't feed it's people. Even Germany that was once excelling is now collapsing economically. The only bright spot on the continent right now is Poland who are, shocker, much less regulatorily strict and have lower corporate taxes.
- debugnik 1y ago> Countries like Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal PIGS, really? Some of the top growing EU economies right now, which have turned their deficit around, show the future of a slowly stagnating Europe?
- bobxmax 1y agoA 200B economy growing 2% is the future of the EU? Yes that is the point I am making.
- micromacrofoot 1y agoHow much is an economy supposed to grow?
- bobxmax 1y agoBangladesh has twice the GDP and 3x the growth. How long do you expect Portugal to be relevant?
- dmos62 1y agoIt is fairly common to struggle to understand why different cultures think the way they do.
- moralestapia 1y agoUgh. Edit: Parent changed their comment significantly, from something quite unpleasant to what it is now. I'm not deleting my comment as I'm not that kind of person.
- dmos62 1y agoI did. I initially said that Europeans often struggle to understand other cultures too. Which was an immature way to point out that the cultural dissonance works both ways. I realized that I was obfuscating my point and rewrote my comment to be clearer, but now that you gave me a chance to think on it some more, I wish I would have said what I wanted to say more directly still. What I wanted to say is: I like EU's regulation and I find it interesting how other people have different world views.
- atemerev 1y agoI live in Europe.
- mrtksn 1y agoCool, which regulations exactly stopped you from doing cutting edge AI?
- kelseyfrog 1y agoDécret sur la Pause Goûter Universelle (PGU).
- philjohn 1y agoIs that the regulation that says you need to allow someone to take a 20 minute break after 6 hours of work?
- cpldcpu 1y agoSorry, this is just getting old... Its a trite talking point and not the reason why there are so few consumer-AI companies in Europe.
- atemerev 1y agoAnd what would be the reason? I am genuinely interested. Also, are there viable not "consumer" AI companies here? Only Mistral seems to train foundation models, and good for them, however, as of now they are absolutely not SOTA.
- baq 1y agoMoney. No, really - EU doesn't have the VCs and the megacorps. People laugh at EU sponsoring projects, but there is no private money to sponsor them. There are plenty of US companies with sites in the EU though, so you have people working the problems, but no branding.
- SV_BubbleTime 1y agoOk, just a quick question… why does Europe not have the money actual/people?
- baq 1y agoedit: the parent has since edited out the flamebait. Maybe, or maybe when silicon valley was busy growing exponentially Europe was still picking itself up from the mess of ww2. Trying to blame a single reason is futile, naive and childish.
- oceanplexian 1y agoThe US was out-innovating Europe a long time before WW2, we had faster, more extensive rail systems, superior high rise construction, earlier to electrification, invention of the telephone, modern manufacturing (Model T), invention of the airplane, the birth of Hollywood and modern motion pictures, the list goes on.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1y agoHonestly the US approach to AI is incredibly irresponsible. As an American, I'm glad that someone somewhere is thinking about regulation. Not sure it will be enough though: https://xcancel.com/ESYudkowsky/status/1922710969785917691#m https://xcancel.com/ESYudkowsky/status/1922710969785917691#m
- MoonGhost 1y agoNo, thanks, we don't want to be like EU. Everything regulated to death. They even thought to criminalize street photography because there could be copyrighted materials in the picture. Not sure, are they still taxing Eiffel tower images?
- johnisgood 1y agoI thought it is happening in the US, too. I mean, the Government is there to regulate the shit out of everything. Regardless of where you are.
- int_19h 1y agoEU is not a monolithic entity, and amount of regulation varies widely. Baltics are very business friendly, for example.
- bobxmax 1y agoAnd Estonia has the most impressive tech ecosystem on the continent while being a soviet backwater 20 years ago. Shocking how that works.
- msgodel 1y agoThere's nothing the regulation could meaningfully hope to accomplish other than slow down people willing to play by the rules.
- ambicapter 1y agoWow, the "criminals don't follow laws therefore laws are worthless" argument, here? In my HN?
- Mistletoe 1y agoThis is why I want to move to the EU. I don’t care if companies aren’t coddled there. I want to live where people are the first priority.
- atemerev 1y agoWell, are you ready to live on a low middle class salary of a European software engineer? It is really low middle class. The middle middle here would be a bank clerk, and upper middle — a lawyer or a surgeon. This is not coincidental.
- baq 1y agoIncidentally (also not) surgeons and lawyers are not poor in the states either… it’s just Silicon Valley was the perfect place with just the right people and it kept growing for 60 years straight. Surgery and law do not grow exponentially. (I’ll pretend the pages of regulation aren’t supposed to count.)