6 ms·

Why are the good guys sanctioning ICC judges?

spwa4 1y ago
The relationship between the US and the ICC has been deteriorating for 3-4 decades now. The OIC effectively controls the ICC (they have the majority vote in electing judges), and the US fights terrorism. This used to be a huge complaint across African countries (because they had the same problem: African governments went pretty far in suppressing islamic insurgencies that threatened their existence. Of course the insurgencies committed 100x the human rights violations that those states did, but never got convicted)
- DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
  > The OIC effectively controls the ICC That's a pretty crazy claim. 125 countries have joined the ICC. The OIC only has 57 members (not all of them even have a Muslim majority). Of the three judges who issued the arrest warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant, two are European (one is French, the other Slovenian). The US has the same problem with the ICC as it does with the ICJ: the US government does not want to be subject to international law. The US is used to acting as a superpower, in whatever way it wants. It just fundamentally does not accept the premise that its actions should be in any way constrained by international law. In this particular instance, the problem the US has with the ICC is that the US is Israel's primary backer. The US provides the money, weapons and diplomatic support that Israel needs to continue its war against the Palestinians and occupation of the Palestinian territories. The US itself is heavily implicated in the crimes that the ICC is prosecuting here.
  - mytailorisrich 1y ago
    Countries are sovereign and what is called "international law" are voluntary agreements among countries.
    - spwa4 1y ago
      Following such agreements, once signed, is also voluntary. And the track record, to put it mildly, is not good. In this situation, just to name one example, hamas and the PA have both promised to arrest any terrorists they know of (because in trade they would gain the right to sue Israel), as well as respecting Israel's borders. Needless to say, their efforts are considered less than convincing. And it's not limited to this conflict. Other examples include that in order to "join the international order", ie. the WTO, China promised to not support any companies with state support and to charge all companies normal company taxes. And while I'm not aware of definitive proof, nobody seriously believes they are doing this. The agreement also outlaws what they're (very publicly) doing with loans in the belt and road initiative, by the way. Or other examples: the US, France, the UK and other countries specifically signed that if Russia invaded Crimea that they would do some combination of: 1) declare war on Russia (this is in all agreements) 2) support Ukraine economically 3) support Ukraine militarily 4) commit to attack Russia physically and help free Crimea "kinetically" In trade for Ukraine denuclearizing. Whilst there are different agreements, let's just simplify and say that any particular agreement contains 3 out of those 4 provisions. And while all countries (except of course Russia) have indeed supported Ukraine, none of them have followed through on their commitment to declare war on Russia. I took a year of law school, because, you know, bored. And I do remember one professor (who was a sitting supreme court judge at the time, btw), described international law as "fiction, a guideline at best". The problem being that nobody, except the US and Israel, have any real intention of following through on international agreements. Of course, this was before the current iteration of the conflict, even before 2014. On one hand, his opinion has not changed ... but it's because he has since left us.
      - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
        > hamas and the PA have both promised to arrest any terrorists they know of ... Needless to say, their efforts are considered less than convincing. The Palestinian Authority works extremely closely with the Israelis to hunt down anyone who engages in armed resistance against Israel. Just think of how incredible that is. The PA, which is run by the Palestinian Liberation Organization, supposedly dedicated to freeing the Palestinians from Israeli oppression, is working with the Israelis to prevent Palestinians from resisting an occupying military force. The PA has burned a huge amount of political capital doing this, and is now widely hated by the Palestinians. It's seen as a collaborationist organization. So when you demand that the PA work even more slavishly for Israel than it already does, I don't know what you're seriously expecting. > China promised to not support any companies with state support China did not make a blanket commitment to end all state support to its companies. Not even the United States or Western European countries have made such a commitment. China promised to carry out many different types of economic reforms, and it did indeed carry out very deep and painful reforms. The Chinese economy is drastically different than it was in the 1990s. Most of the big state monopolies have been broken up, private companies play a much larger role than before, and foreign investment is much easier. > the US, France, the UK and other countries specifically signed that if Russia invaded Crimea that they would do some combination of No, the US, France and UK never committed to defend Ukraine militarily. The Budapest Memorandum just said that each country agreed not to attack Ukraine, and that they would discuss with one another if there were any violations of the agreement. > The problem being that nobody, except the US and Israel, have any real intention of following through on international agreements. Huh? The US and Israel are not known for following through on international agreements. The US might have had some sort of reputation many decades ago, but that reputation is thoroughly shot through now. Israel never did. It has always been a loose cannon on the international stage.
pjc50 1y ago
They're not the good guys. They're covering for the genocide.
cruzcampo 1y ago
[dead]
StanislavPetrov 1y ago
There have never been any good guys, just competing powers and worse guys.
saubeidl 1y ago
Are we the baddies? (cf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY)
xdennis 1y ago
Because international institutions have an anti-Israel bias. E.g. in 2020 Israel was condemned by the UN 17 times while all the other countries put together only got 6 condemnations. [1] In 2020, Israel killed 33 Palestinians. Compare that to Americans killing 19444 Afganis, drug lords killing 34512 Mexicans, Saudis killing 19056 Yemenis, Boko Haram killing 7300 Africans, etc. [2] [1]: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/12/24/un-condemns-israel-most-in-2020-almost-three-times-rest-of-world https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/12/24/un-condemns-israel... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_in_2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_in_202...
- keutoi 1y ago
  An ongoing illegal occupation for 50 years is reduced down to 33 lives...
  - lostmsu 1y ago
    In what way is it illegal by the current laws or any laws since 1980? Genuinely curious, not familiar with details.
    - pas 1y ago
      it's illegal since the Nakba, because starting wars are illegal without UN authorization and paramilitary forces attacking civilians were illegal in British Palestine taking private property also and poisoning wells is also technically not super bueno under a little know statute, the laundry list of deeds for which Hammurabbi will fuck you up personally, but I'm not a legal scholars so maybe it was so legal a mockingbird granted them statehood. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread

The relationship between the US and the ICC has been deteriorating for 3-4 decades now. The OIC effectively controls the ICC (they have the majority vote in electing judges), and the US fights terrorism. This used to be a huge complaint across African countries (because they had the same problem: African governments went pretty far in suppressing islamic insurgencies that threatened their existence. Of course the insurgencies committed 100x the human rights violations that those states did, but never got convicted)

DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
> The OIC effectively controls the ICC That's a pretty crazy claim. 125 countries have joined the ICC. The OIC only has 57 members (not all of them even have a Muslim majority). Of the three judges who issued the arrest warrants for Benjamin Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant, two are European (one is French, the other Slovenian). The US has the same problem with the ICC as it does with the ICJ: the US government does not want to be subject to international law. The US is used to acting as a superpower, in whatever way it wants. It just fundamentally does not accept the premise that its actions should be in any way constrained by international law. In this particular instance, the problem the US has with the ICC is that the US is Israel's primary backer. The US provides the money, weapons and diplomatic support that Israel needs to continue its war against the Palestinians and occupation of the Palestinian territories. The US itself is heavily implicated in the crimes that the ICC is prosecuting here.
- mytailorisrich 1y ago
  Countries are sovereign and what is called "international law" are voluntary agreements among countries.
  - spwa4 1y ago
    Following such agreements, once signed, is also voluntary. And the track record, to put it mildly, is not good. In this situation, just to name one example, hamas and the PA have both promised to arrest any terrorists they know of (because in trade they would gain the right to sue Israel), as well as respecting Israel's borders. Needless to say, their efforts are considered less than convincing. And it's not limited to this conflict. Other examples include that in order to "join the international order", ie. the WTO, China promised to not support any companies with state support and to charge all companies normal company taxes. And while I'm not aware of definitive proof, nobody seriously believes they are doing this. The agreement also outlaws what they're (very publicly) doing with loans in the belt and road initiative, by the way. Or other examples: the US, France, the UK and other countries specifically signed that if Russia invaded Crimea that they would do some combination of: 1) declare war on Russia (this is in all agreements) 2) support Ukraine economically 3) support Ukraine militarily 4) commit to attack Russia physically and help free Crimea "kinetically" In trade for Ukraine denuclearizing. Whilst there are different agreements, let's just simplify and say that any particular agreement contains 3 out of those 4 provisions. And while all countries (except of course Russia) have indeed supported Ukraine, none of them have followed through on their commitment to declare war on Russia. I took a year of law school, because, you know, bored. And I do remember one professor (who was a sitting supreme court judge at the time, btw), described international law as "fiction, a guideline at best". The problem being that nobody, except the US and Israel, have any real intention of following through on international agreements. Of course, this was before the current iteration of the conflict, even before 2014. On one hand, his opinion has not changed ... but it's because he has since left us.
    - DiogenesKynikos 1y ago
      > hamas and the PA have both promised to arrest any terrorists they know of ... Needless to say, their efforts are considered less than convincing. The Palestinian Authority works extremely closely with the Israelis to hunt down anyone who engages in armed resistance against Israel. Just think of how incredible that is. The PA, which is run by the Palestinian Liberation Organization, supposedly dedicated to freeing the Palestinians from Israeli oppression, is working with the Israelis to prevent Palestinians from resisting an occupying military force. The PA has burned a huge amount of political capital doing this, and is now widely hated by the Palestinians. It's seen as a collaborationist organization. So when you demand that the PA work even more slavishly for Israel than it already does, I don't know what you're seriously expecting. > China promised to not support any companies with state support China did not make a blanket commitment to end all state support to its companies. Not even the United States or Western European countries have made such a commitment. China promised to carry out many different types of economic reforms, and it did indeed carry out very deep and painful reforms. The Chinese economy is drastically different than it was in the 1990s. Most of the big state monopolies have been broken up, private companies play a much larger role than before, and foreign investment is much easier. > the US, France, the UK and other countries specifically signed that if Russia invaded Crimea that they would do some combination of No, the US, France and UK never committed to defend Ukraine militarily. The Budapest Memorandum just said that each country agreed not to attack Ukraine, and that they would discuss with one another if there were any violations of the agreement. > The problem being that nobody, except the US and Israel, have any real intention of following through on international agreements. Huh? The US and Israel are not known for following through on international agreements. The US might have had some sort of reputation many decades ago, but that reputation is thoroughly shot through now. Israel never did. It has always been a loose cannon on the international stage.

pjc50 1y ago

They're not the good guys. They're covering for the genocide.

cruzcampo 1y ago

[dead]

StanislavPetrov 1y ago

There have never been any good guys, just competing powers and worse guys.

saubeidl 1y ago

Are we the baddies? (cf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToKcmnrE5oY)

xdennis 1y ago

Because international institutions have an anti-Israel bias. E.g. in 2020 Israel was condemned by the UN 17 times while all the other countries put together only got 6 condemnations. [1] In 2020, Israel killed 33 Palestinians. Compare that to Americans killing 19444 Afganis, drug lords killing 34512 Mexicans, Saudis killing 19056 Yemenis, Boko Haram killing 7300 Africans, etc. [2] [1]: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/12/24/un-condemns-israel-most-in-2020-almost-three-times-rest-of-world https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/12/24/un-condemns-israel... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_in_2020 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_conflicts_in_202...

keutoi 1y ago
An ongoing illegal occupation for 50 years is reduced down to 33 lives...
- lostmsu 1y ago
  In what way is it illegal by the current laws or any laws since 1980? Genuinely curious, not familiar with details.
  - pas 1y ago
    it's illegal since the Nakba, because starting wars are illegal without UN authorization and paramilitary forces attacking civilians were illegal in British Palestine taking private property also and poisoning wells is also technically not super bueno under a little know statute, the laundry list of deeds for which Hammurabbi will fuck you up personally, but I'm not a legal scholars so maybe it was so legal a mockingbird granted them statehood. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cast_Thy_Bread