8 ms·

I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying ICE should deport on.. merit basis? Leave the hardest working immigrants be and deport the lazy ones?

runlevel1 1y ago
Trump repeatedly said the administration would be targeting 'violent criminals and rapists', 'gang members', and 'heinous monsters' first. So, you know, maybe they could try to do what they said they'd do for once?
- lipowitz 1y ago
  The US is obsessed with precedence so doing something correctly once would ruin their exemption.
- curtisblaine 1y ago
  I don't understand what are you proposing in practice. Should ICE discover illegal immigrants and let them go if they're not heinous enough?
  - justinrubek 1y ago
    They've stated themselves that they don't have the resources for due process in all of these cases. So, yes. That is precisely what they should do. They can stop putting effort and resources into pointless ones and actually do their job.
    - curtisblaine 1y ago
      So now they have not only to determine a person is an illegal alien; on top of that, you want them to somehow determine who is "heinous" and who is "good"? It seems a lot more work, considering the fact that there's no objective scale for "being heinous" (what do you do? You ask their friends?) but there's a reasonably objective way of telling if a person is illegaly residing in US or not.
      - freejazz 1y ago
        Well, it's what Trump said they would do. So they can either do it or he's lying.
      - yibg 1y ago
        There is a pretty reasonable way to determine if someone is "heinous" or not, committing a violent crime and being found guilty of it. And if going through a criminal justice system is "too much work", then I'm got news for you about who that's going to be applying to next...
- jghn 1y ago
  The problem is that the average person bot agrees that only the worst of the worst should go, but also believes that there are far, far, far more of such people out there than actually exist. This is why we see poll metrics saying things like a majority of people agree with the deportations but disagree with how it is being done.
- ModernMech 1y ago
  Ah but that was a sleight of hand! They're doing exactly what they said they'd do. They said they'd target violent criminals, but they didn't say they wouldn't target non violent criminals as well. People who heard that were wishcasting. Whether or not they are a "priority" is semantics. If you hear them explain it, they're all defacto criminals for being undocumented, and therefore equally culpable as a murder or a rapist in matters of deportation. The crime they're concerned about over all others is illegal immigration. According to them, an illegal immigrant who has done nothing else wrong deserves to be deported just as much as rapist illegal immigrant.
intended 1y ago
There’s a million ways to skin a cat. The process you choose informs everyone of the problem you are prioritizing. For example, you are deporting labor. Ostensibly Because of fairness and justice - they are in the country illegally. Ergo they should go. No one should be above the law. This has zip to do with gangs and criminality though. But why this process ? Why not punish people who are employing them ? This is more efficient and even more just. People are employing workers they know are here illegally and undercutting minimum wage. Or why not raise minimum wage so more people will be willing to work those jobs ? People act on incentives - and america is a country with a concentration of some of the hardest working and smartest people in the world. It has a tradition of valuing this and converting those strengths into its own. Now I have enough of a background in econ, business and politics to see through the narratives. I also know you can’t sell all those interventions, not the least because none of these address the issue of gangs and criminality and eating pets. Which brings us to the issue that your rationale, the ones which are debated online - are downstream from whatever controversy and theory that’s going to show up as soon as a new distraction is needed. I mean, just Take a look at your original question, “Leave the hardest working and deport the lazy ones ?” America is built on immigration of the hardest working, most driven people from across the globe. America is a machine for hardworking people to move ahead. That’s its promise. And this is the question its citizens are unironically asking.
- curtisblaine 1y ago
  That America was built on immigration one century (or even one decade) ago doesn't say anything about what America should do now. America is a nation that has borders and a right to control immigration, like all other nations in the world. When America wants more immigration, the American government raises the number of legal immigrants allowed per year. When they want less, they lower that number. Illegal immigrants, hard working or lazy, have nothing to do with that.
  - intended 1y ago
    You want to ditch history for what America should do now, and what America wants to do now, based on an exact reading of your words, is to "enforce its laws on illegal immigrants". And you implied you want to reduce immigration as well. As I said, many ways to skin a cat. People follow incentives, so why not punish people who are paying for the labor? Arrests for employing them? Its an economic system, theres 2 way incentives. The process used, depends on what problem you are solving.

runlevel1 1y ago

Trump repeatedly said the administration would be targeting 'violent criminals and rapists', 'gang members', and 'heinous monsters' first. So, you know, maybe they could try to do what they said they'd do for once?

lipowitz 1y ago
The US is obsessed with precedence so doing something correctly once would ruin their exemption.
curtisblaine 1y ago
I don't understand what are you proposing in practice. Should ICE discover illegal immigrants and let them go if they're not heinous enough?
- justinrubek 1y ago
  They've stated themselves that they don't have the resources for due process in all of these cases. So, yes. That is precisely what they should do. They can stop putting effort and resources into pointless ones and actually do their job.
  - curtisblaine 1y ago
    So now they have not only to determine a person is an illegal alien; on top of that, you want them to somehow determine who is "heinous" and who is "good"? It seems a lot more work, considering the fact that there's no objective scale for "being heinous" (what do you do? You ask their friends?) but there's a reasonably objective way of telling if a person is illegaly residing in US or not.
    - freejazz 1y ago
      Well, it's what Trump said they would do. So they can either do it or he's lying.
    - yibg 1y ago
      There is a pretty reasonable way to determine if someone is "heinous" or not, committing a violent crime and being found guilty of it. And if going through a criminal justice system is "too much work", then I'm got news for you about who that's going to be applying to next...
jghn 1y ago
The problem is that the average person bot agrees that only the worst of the worst should go, but also believes that there are far, far, far more of such people out there than actually exist. This is why we see poll metrics saying things like a majority of people agree with the deportations but disagree with how it is being done.
ModernMech 1y ago
Ah but that was a sleight of hand! They're doing exactly what they said they'd do. They said they'd target violent criminals, but they didn't say they wouldn't target non violent criminals as well. People who heard that were wishcasting. Whether or not they are a "priority" is semantics. If you hear them explain it, they're all defacto criminals for being undocumented, and therefore equally culpable as a murder or a rapist in matters of deportation. The crime they're concerned about over all others is illegal immigration. According to them, an illegal immigrant who has done nothing else wrong deserves to be deported just as much as rapist illegal immigrant.

intended 1y ago

There’s a million ways to skin a cat. The process you choose informs everyone of the problem you are prioritizing. For example, you are deporting labor. Ostensibly Because of fairness and justice - they are in the country illegally. Ergo they should go. No one should be above the law. This has zip to do with gangs and criminality though. But why this process ? Why not punish people who are employing them ? This is more efficient and even more just. People are employing workers they know are here illegally and undercutting minimum wage. Or why not raise minimum wage so more people will be willing to work those jobs ? People act on incentives - and america is a country with a concentration of some of the hardest working and smartest people in the world. It has a tradition of valuing this and converting those strengths into its own. Now I have enough of a background in econ, business and politics to see through the narratives. I also know you can’t sell all those interventions, not the least because none of these address the issue of gangs and criminality and eating pets. Which brings us to the issue that your rationale, the ones which are debated online - are downstream from whatever controversy and theory that’s going to show up as soon as a new distraction is needed. I mean, just Take a look at your original question, “Leave the hardest working and deport the lazy ones ?” America is built on immigration of the hardest working, most driven people from across the globe. America is a machine for hardworking people to move ahead. That’s its promise. And this is the question its citizens are unironically asking.

curtisblaine 1y ago
That America was built on immigration one century (or even one decade) ago doesn't say anything about what America should do now. America is a nation that has borders and a right to control immigration, like all other nations in the world. When America wants more immigration, the American government raises the number of legal immigrants allowed per year. When they want less, they lower that number. Illegal immigrants, hard working or lazy, have nothing to do with that.
- intended 1y ago
  You want to ditch history for what America should do now, and what America wants to do now, based on an exact reading of your words, is to "enforce its laws on illegal immigrants". And you implied you want to reduce immigration as well. As I said, many ways to skin a cat. People follow incentives, so why not punish people who are paying for the labor? Arrests for employing them? Its an economic system, theres 2 way incentives. The process used, depends on what problem you are solving.