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Desire for children is above the replacement rate, though. There is a gap between the world we live in and the world desired. One solution would be to close th

Desire for children is above the replacement rate, though. There is a gap between the world we live in and the world desired. One solution would be to close the gap.

lmm 1y ago
> Desire for children is above the replacement rate, though. Among whom? Evidently not among the women who would actually be bearing them.
- littlestymaar 1y ago
  Why do you think this is “evident”? I don't know worldwide but in France at least, French women would like to have more kids than they have.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- AngryData 1y ago
  Why do you say evidently not? I have multiple friends who would love to have children, but can't fathom managing to fulfill the monetary costs to do so. They don't make enough money to send them all to childcare all the time, but quitting their job to take care of the kids will cut their income in half and make saving any reasonable amount of money for retirement near impossible.
  - coffeebeqn 1y ago
    They also can’t buy a house that would house 2-3 more people and their stuff
  - morepedantic 1y ago
    Perhaps they simply have unrealistic material expectations not in line with individual productivity. In fact, if your expectations are a function of your childless consumption levels, then it will always exceed what you can achieve with the same income spread over more people.
    - AngryData 1y ago
      Maybe in your job losing your partner's income may merely represent lowering your consumption levels, but the vast majority of people aren't earning enough money to simply lower consumption levels when their income is halved. I don't consider people living in a 2 bedroom 1 bath house, driving 15 year old cars, and buying a few video games to be some sort of excessive living or high level of consumption.
      - brabel 1y ago
        The people living a simple life as you describe have more children than the higher paid inner city folk. Explanations like yours are shown again and again to not explain reality.
        disgruntledphd2 1y ago
        But if your fixed costs are much lower (housing etc) then it makes more financial sense to have kids as there's less of a hit from the loss of lots of income (plus expenses, kids are not cheap). Like, we have two kids and a top 10% (bottom of the top though) salary, and we have no discretionary income or ability to save (very much) after paying for the costs associated with kids and housing. I can completely understand why people don't want to do that, particularly given that 90% of households in my country earn less than us.
        morepedantic 1y ago
        Sometimes there is an income problem. Sometimes there is a spending problem. And sometimes there is a cost problem. But cost is unlike the others, because income and spending are individual, but cost is universal. Inflation from 2020-2024 was absurdly high. This was a universal hit to cost, and everyone felt it. But outside of that recency bias, Americans have poor financial literacy. Americans have spending problems: credit card debt, car loans, and student loans come to mind. Each of these debt categories aren't inherently bad. Student loans are great if the degree has earning potential, but most Americans don't seek those degrees. Car loans aren't bad if it's a practical and affordable vehicles, but Americans like luxury SUVs. Credit cards aren't bad if you buy a washing machine to save on laundromat visits, but Americans like expensive vacations. Americans also have problems with income, but that's even more complicated.
  - lmm 1y ago
    > Why do you say evidently not? I have multiple friends who would love to have children, but can't fathom managing to fulfill the monetary costs to do so. Then I put it to you that their desire isn't above the replacement rate. People with no money manage to have plenty of children.
- mym1990 1y ago
  Many still have the desire, but today have the choice to walk away from that desire in order to pursue a career, or to just live life in a different way. Some also have the desire but have trouble conceiving, or don't have the means to support a child. The gap is definitely there.
  - lmm 1y ago
    > Many still have the desire, but today have the choice to walk away from that desire in order to pursue a career, or to just live life in a different way. I'd say in that case they don't have the desire. They may want children all else being equal, but they don't want to put in what it would cost them to have children. Otherwise they would.
    - mym1990 1y ago
      Okay…I usually have the desire to eat cake, I don’t have it for every meal though.
      - lmm 1y ago
        I'm not claiming that desire is zero, just that it's below replacement rate. Just like if the desire for cake isn't enough to sustain a bakery in my neighbourhood.
  - unstablediffusi 1y ago
    the deciding metric here is how old are they when they start wanting children. naturally, that factor is ignored, because it's politically incorrect to discuss it for a number of reasons. a woman in her thirties has very slim chances to find a partner because men in their thirties have unlimited access to an unlimited number of women in their twenties. it's a harsh truth, but burying one's head in the sand doesn't really help.
    - lmm 1y ago
      > men in their thirties have unlimited access to an unlimited number of women in their twenties On the contrary. Maybe the most desirable 20% do, but many men in their thirties have very little access to women of any age.

Desire for children is above the replacement rate, though. There is a gap between the world we live in and the world desired. One solution would be to close the gap.

lmm 1y ago

> Desire for children is above the replacement rate, though. Among whom? Evidently not among the women who would actually be bearing them.

littlestymaar 1y ago
Why do you think this is “evident”? I don't know worldwide but in France at least, French women would like to have more kids than they have.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
AngryData 1y ago
Why do you say evidently not? I have multiple friends who would love to have children, but can't fathom managing to fulfill the monetary costs to do so. They don't make enough money to send them all to childcare all the time, but quitting their job to take care of the kids will cut their income in half and make saving any reasonable amount of money for retirement near impossible.
- coffeebeqn 1y ago
  They also can’t buy a house that would house 2-3 more people and their stuff
- morepedantic 1y ago
  Perhaps they simply have unrealistic material expectations not in line with individual productivity. In fact, if your expectations are a function of your childless consumption levels, then it will always exceed what you can achieve with the same income spread over more people.
  - AngryData 1y ago
    Maybe in your job losing your partner's income may merely represent lowering your consumption levels, but the vast majority of people aren't earning enough money to simply lower consumption levels when their income is halved. I don't consider people living in a 2 bedroom 1 bath house, driving 15 year old cars, and buying a few video games to be some sort of excessive living or high level of consumption.
    - brabel 1y ago
      The people living a simple life as you describe have more children than the higher paid inner city folk. Explanations like yours are shown again and again to not explain reality.
      - disgruntledphd2 1y ago
        But if your fixed costs are much lower (housing etc) then it makes more financial sense to have kids as there's less of a hit from the loss of lots of income (plus expenses, kids are not cheap). Like, we have two kids and a top 10% (bottom of the top though) salary, and we have no discretionary income or ability to save (very much) after paying for the costs associated with kids and housing. I can completely understand why people don't want to do that, particularly given that 90% of households in my country earn less than us.
        morepedantic 1y ago
        Sometimes there is an income problem. Sometimes there is a spending problem. And sometimes there is a cost problem. But cost is unlike the others, because income and spending are individual, but cost is universal. Inflation from 2020-2024 was absurdly high. This was a universal hit to cost, and everyone felt it. But outside of that recency bias, Americans have poor financial literacy. Americans have spending problems: credit card debt, car loans, and student loans come to mind. Each of these debt categories aren't inherently bad. Student loans are great if the degree has earning potential, but most Americans don't seek those degrees. Car loans aren't bad if it's a practical and affordable vehicles, but Americans like luxury SUVs. Credit cards aren't bad if you buy a washing machine to save on laundromat visits, but Americans like expensive vacations. Americans also have problems with income, but that's even more complicated.
- lmm 1y ago
  > Why do you say evidently not? I have multiple friends who would love to have children, but can't fathom managing to fulfill the monetary costs to do so. Then I put it to you that their desire isn't above the replacement rate. People with no money manage to have plenty of children.
mym1990 1y ago
Many still have the desire, but today have the choice to walk away from that desire in order to pursue a career, or to just live life in a different way. Some also have the desire but have trouble conceiving, or don't have the means to support a child. The gap is definitely there.
- lmm 1y ago
  > Many still have the desire, but today have the choice to walk away from that desire in order to pursue a career, or to just live life in a different way. I'd say in that case they don't have the desire. They may want children all else being equal, but they don't want to put in what it would cost them to have children. Otherwise they would.
  - mym1990 1y ago
    Okay…I usually have the desire to eat cake, I don’t have it for every meal though.
    - lmm 1y ago
      I'm not claiming that desire is zero, just that it's below replacement rate. Just like if the desire for cake isn't enough to sustain a bakery in my neighbourhood.
- unstablediffusi 1y ago
  the deciding metric here is how old are they when they start wanting children. naturally, that factor is ignored, because it's politically incorrect to discuss it for a number of reasons. a woman in her thirties has very slim chances to find a partner because men in their thirties have unlimited access to an unlimited number of women in their twenties. it's a harsh truth, but burying one's head in the sand doesn't really help.
  - lmm 1y ago
    > men in their thirties have unlimited access to an unlimited number of women in their twenties On the contrary. Maybe the most desirable 20% do, but many men in their thirties have very little access to women of any age.