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Well… I am not antivax but can we please stop pretending like our government and health authorities didn’t royally screw the pooch as it related to the COVID v

Well… I am not antivax but can we please stop pretending like our government and health authorities didn’t royally screw the pooch as it related to the COVID vaccine communications, mandates, etc…? People became more anti-vax largely due to the prior administration more than RFKjr. So there may not be a scientific defense but there damn sure is a backlash because of poor leadership.

dekhn 1y ago
I recommend spending some time as a public health official; it helps understand the logic that PH people apply when they make policy. I also recommend reading a bunch about the history of vaccines and the challenges associated with them.
- kcplate 1y ago
  Nope, they don’t get a pass for being incompetent from me just because a job is difficult. I’ll also never accept a “well their intentions were good” type of argument—-If the results suck, the results suck. Our country moved towards antivax mentality in a big way because of how our government handled that pandemic. That’s unforgivable and I am not someone who will blame the effect instead of the cause.
  - sarchertech 1y ago
    Our country handled the pandemic nearly the same as other developed countries, but none of them have had such an extreme reaction. What happened is that our country is extremely polarized and one side picked vaccines, masks, and lockdowns, so the other side took the opposite stance. Then the vaccine, mask, and lockdown side reacted by leaning farther in (probably a bit too far near the end of things). On the one side you had people yelling about masks causing them to asphyxiate and on the other you had people wearing masks alone in the car.
    - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
      I'm sure I was one of the people wearing the mask alone in the car, but that was only because it was easier to leave it on when I left the house than to continually put it on and take it off when I was out running errands. I guess I never found them that uncomfortable.
      - sarchertech 1y ago
        That’s fair. I was mostly looking for a hyperbolic example of people on the pro mask side, but that’s a good point.
  - YZF 1y ago
    I agree and this is also true in other countries. I'm not sure why this is even a question. The results of the pandemic sucked big time and people lost trust over masks vs. no masks, boosters, lock downs, and many other pseduo-random rules not backed by any real evidence. This loss of trust was broader than just the vaccines. We don't even seem to be learning in retrospect. I've yet to see one article from health officials to the public about how they could have done better and what mistakes were made.
- Workaccount2 1y ago
  Like the fact that wearing masks in public is primarily done so that sick people have a mask over their coughing mouth. But if only sick people had to wear masks, it would single you out as sick, so nobody would wear a mask. So the solution is for everyone to wear a mask, so a mask isn't a sign of illness. Of course, this level of thinking requires an IQ of at least 100, which half the population is under. So "Wear a mask, because masks stop the spread of illness" is used to allude to masks being a tool for protection primarily, rather than a tool of containment.
  - refurb 1y ago
    “People are too dumb to understand so we have to lie to them” How’s that working out so far?
  - kcplate 1y ago
    Was that after the first Fauci lie about them not being helpful or the second lie where he said they were? Now you are suggesting it was all some form of performative behavior modification theater? It’s no wonder our public trust in our health authorities has decreased.
    - Workaccount2 1y ago
      There a no pieces that don't fit here, except being over the intelligence threshold to understand what was going on. - He said masks are not effective because they aren't. Surgical masks won't stop much and N95 needs special procedure to use properly. 95% of people clamoring for masks would be healthy unsick people who want protection from the virus, which masks aren't that great at (in general public hands). - At the time people needed to stay home and medical workers who understand masks and using them properly needed them. There was a huge shortage. - The number of sick people going out in public, the ones where a mask is very effective (picture a sweatshirt hanging over a garden hose, now spray someone with it) would be very small, requiring very few masks. - If the public understood that only sick people needed to wear masks -no one would wear a mask- Health officials deeply understand this. You kill your whole program if the public associates masks with being sick. Fauci had no lies, maybe misteps, but he could not reveal the true motivation of "Wear a mask" (stated in the line abaove) because it kills the whole initiative(as stated in the line above). So now, lets see who can clear the hurdle: How do you as a public health communicator get all sick people to wear masks in public? Fauci was stuck in a game theory problem, and you need some hidden information (which I now revealed) and mild intelligence to understand it
consumer451 1y ago
Just to be clear as to who you are blaming, because the retconning on this topic makes me feel like I am losing my mind: > On May 15, 2020, President Donald Trump officially announced the public-private partnership. The purpose of Operation Warp Speed was to coordinate Health and Human Services-wide efforts, including the NIH ACTIV partnership for vaccine and therapeutic development, the NIH RADx initiative for diagnostic development, and work by BARDA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed
- kcplate 1y ago
  Trump didn’t mandate them to federal workers and to the military. Trump didn’t get up in front of the populace and lie about their efficacy. For what it’s worth…I am not a Trump supporter…but I am not going to make excuses for Biden and the democrats for the clusterfuck they created.
  - consumer451 1y ago
    I could say that it wasn't Biden who came out anti-vax, while getting vaccinated himself, unlike Trump. RFK made a career out of being anti-vax, while according to his congressional testimony, his own children were indeed vaccinated. These people are political grifters, with no limits, even when it comes to other people's health. (This comment exchange probably sucks, sorry)
    - kcplate 1y ago
      It doesn’t matter that Biden et al. are pro vaccination and that RFKjr is antivax. What matters is that Biden et al. influenced more antivax attitudes than RFKjr could have ever hoped to in all the time he evangelized it. That is the real issue. RFKjr is in the position he is as a reaction to bad leadership. Whatever further damage that he manages to do, is still owned by the mismanagement caused by the prior administration.
      - consumer451 1y ago
mcphage 1y ago
> People became more anti-vax largely due to the prior administration more than RFKjr. People became more anti-vax because of the large contingent pushing anti-vax conspiracies to a credulous audience. The previous administration’s policies were a significant success. Any idea they were a failure or a mistake is wrong.
- const_cast 1y ago
  Right, I don't understand why these people are constructing these elaborate and convoluted mechanism for which anti-vax rhetoric increased. It's very simple: if you push more anti-vax talking points and conspiracies, then naturally those ideas will be more popular in the zeitgeist. And, well, the right in general has been doing just that. Two plus two, now there's a lot more anti-vax people.
  - kcplate 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - const_cast 1y ago
      The Covid vaccine was, and remains, very effective and overall safe. What it never was, and was never advertised to be, is 100% effective or 100% safe. Because nothing is, even air and water. I don't know where people's obviously incorrect and unrealistic expectation of the Covid vaccine came from. Well, I can guess: anti-vax rhetoric. But, everyone on Earth should know that of course the Covid vaccine is not magic. Because no vaccines are magic. And no medicines are magic. And no substances are magic. When people say seatbelts are safe, I don't see gremlins coming out of the woodwork to "erm, akshually" that. But, as soon as someone says the Covid vaccine is safe, suddenly everyone is Helen Keller. This is not your first day on Earth. Please, stop acting stupid. Overall, yes, having the Covid vaccine lowers your risk of Covid-related bad things. It is effective, full stop. Please don't try to refute this or argue against because I just don't care.
      - Auracle 1y ago
Marsymars 1y ago
> I am not antivax but can we please stop pretending like our government and health authorities didn’t royally screw the pooch as it related to the COVID vaccine communications, mandates, etc…? In what way? (Specifically re: screwing the pooch around vaccines, and not other parts of the covid response.)
- kcplate 1y ago
  Lied about its efficacy primarily. Both Biden and Fauci are on record as saying basically “if you get the vaccine you won’t get Covid and can’t give Covid to another person”. People got the vaccine, vaccinated people still got Covid, vaccinated people still spread Covid. Then, even after it was apparent that the vaccine did not have the advertised benefit, they continued to press its use including mandates for federal employees and the military, encouraged censorship of social media conversation about the vaccine and its efficacy, as well as pressed covid vaccination of healthy children (who were among the least likely in the population to either get or spread the disease).
  - cosmicgadget 1y ago
    Weird, my recollection is that they said you could still get covid but it would be extremely mild due to the presence of antibodies.
    - whateveracct 1y ago
      exactly. nobody said what GP said. it's concerntroll nonsense that plays well with the contrarian, "smart" HN crowd.
      - kcplate 1y ago
        Here are a bunch of “Nobodies” talking about vaccinated folks not getting sick (or very low chance of getting sick) and not being contagious and spreading the virus. We know now that this was all bullshit. We all can look back on this time and choose to remember what we want. I am going to remember the government mandating an ineffective vaccine and lying to me about it. https://youtu.be/3gYbfIThc7A?si=O4SCq-RwwEiWt_7W https://youtu.be/3gYbfIThc7A?si=O4SCq-RwwEiWt_7W
nitwit005 1y ago
> People became more anti-vax largely due to the prior administration more than RFKjr. I can remember Trump trying to take credit for funding the vaccine efforts, and getting nothing but negativity from his crowd. Unfortunately, it predates both presidents. It's just kept creeping upward in popularity, along with a lot of other conspiracy theories.
- Auracle 1y ago
  Facebook mom groups. That's the real issue, and it's weird that so few seem to realize it. Sure, they skew Republican because stay-at-home moms tend to skew that way too. As you said though, it all predates both presidents. It was the crunchy parents before COVID, and often times still is.
  - kbelder 1y ago
    Sure, although I'd correct that some, in that prior to COVID anti-vax was more a leftist position. It switched political orientation in less than a couple year's time, which is fascinating.
- thephyber 1y ago
  Thanks, Jenny McCarthy…
- jonlucc 1y ago
  This is true, but leading up to the vaccine, he embraced every stupid conspiracy, related to COVID and before. Remember the bleach and sunshine press conference? A better leader who actually tried to understand the science at a basic level when they have their choice of incredible experts would have been better at communicating to the public from the beginning. He let the horse out of the barn, and that's famously hard to undo.

dekhn 1y ago

I recommend spending some time as a public health official; it helps understand the logic that PH people apply when they make policy. I also recommend reading a bunch about the history of vaccines and the challenges associated with them.

kcplate 1y ago
Nope, they don’t get a pass for being incompetent from me just because a job is difficult. I’ll also never accept a “well their intentions were good” type of argument—-If the results suck, the results suck. Our country moved towards antivax mentality in a big way because of how our government handled that pandemic. That’s unforgivable and I am not someone who will blame the effect instead of the cause.
- sarchertech 1y ago
  Our country handled the pandemic nearly the same as other developed countries, but none of them have had such an extreme reaction. What happened is that our country is extremely polarized and one side picked vaccines, masks, and lockdowns, so the other side took the opposite stance. Then the vaccine, mask, and lockdown side reacted by leaning farther in (probably a bit too far near the end of things). On the one side you had people yelling about masks causing them to asphyxiate and on the other you had people wearing masks alone in the car.
  - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
    I'm sure I was one of the people wearing the mask alone in the car, but that was only because it was easier to leave it on when I left the house than to continually put it on and take it off when I was out running errands. I guess I never found them that uncomfortable.
    - sarchertech 1y ago
      That’s fair. I was mostly looking for a hyperbolic example of people on the pro mask side, but that’s a good point.
- YZF 1y ago
  I agree and this is also true in other countries. I'm not sure why this is even a question. The results of the pandemic sucked big time and people lost trust over masks vs. no masks, boosters, lock downs, and many other pseduo-random rules not backed by any real evidence. This loss of trust was broader than just the vaccines. We don't even seem to be learning in retrospect. I've yet to see one article from health officials to the public about how they could have done better and what mistakes were made.
Workaccount2 1y ago
Like the fact that wearing masks in public is primarily done so that sick people have a mask over their coughing mouth. But if only sick people had to wear masks, it would single you out as sick, so nobody would wear a mask. So the solution is for everyone to wear a mask, so a mask isn't a sign of illness. Of course, this level of thinking requires an IQ of at least 100, which half the population is under. So "Wear a mask, because masks stop the spread of illness" is used to allude to masks being a tool for protection primarily, rather than a tool of containment.
- refurb 1y ago
  “People are too dumb to understand so we have to lie to them” How’s that working out so far?
- kcplate 1y ago
  Was that after the first Fauci lie about them not being helpful or the second lie where he said they were? Now you are suggesting it was all some form of performative behavior modification theater? It’s no wonder our public trust in our health authorities has decreased.
  - Workaccount2 1y ago
    There a no pieces that don't fit here, except being over the intelligence threshold to understand what was going on. - He said masks are not effective because they aren't. Surgical masks won't stop much and N95 needs special procedure to use properly. 95% of people clamoring for masks would be healthy unsick people who want protection from the virus, which masks aren't that great at (in general public hands). - At the time people needed to stay home and medical workers who understand masks and using them properly needed them. There was a huge shortage. - The number of sick people going out in public, the ones where a mask is very effective (picture a sweatshirt hanging over a garden hose, now spray someone with it) would be very small, requiring very few masks. - If the public understood that only sick people needed to wear masks -no one would wear a mask- Health officials deeply understand this. You kill your whole program if the public associates masks with being sick. Fauci had no lies, maybe misteps, but he could not reveal the true motivation of "Wear a mask" (stated in the line abaove) because it kills the whole initiative(as stated in the line above). So now, lets see who can clear the hurdle: How do you as a public health communicator get all sick people to wear masks in public? Fauci was stuck in a game theory problem, and you need some hidden information (which I now revealed) and mild intelligence to understand it

consumer451 1y ago

Just to be clear as to who you are blaming, because the retconning on this topic makes me feel like I am losing my mind: > On May 15, 2020, President Donald Trump officially announced the public-private partnership. The purpose of Operation Warp Speed was to coordinate Health and Human Services-wide efforts, including the NIH ACTIV partnership for vaccine and therapeutic development, the NIH RADx initiative for diagnostic development, and work by BARDA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Warp_Speed

kcplate 1y ago
Trump didn’t mandate them to federal workers and to the military. Trump didn’t get up in front of the populace and lie about their efficacy. For what it’s worth…I am not a Trump supporter…but I am not going to make excuses for Biden and the democrats for the clusterfuck they created.
- consumer451 1y ago
  I could say that it wasn't Biden who came out anti-vax, while getting vaccinated himself, unlike Trump. RFK made a career out of being anti-vax, while according to his congressional testimony, his own children were indeed vaccinated. These people are political grifters, with no limits, even when it comes to other people's health. (This comment exchange probably sucks, sorry)
  - kcplate 1y ago
    It doesn’t matter that Biden et al. are pro vaccination and that RFKjr is antivax. What matters is that Biden et al. influenced more antivax attitudes than RFKjr could have ever hoped to in all the time he evangelized it. That is the real issue. RFKjr is in the position he is as a reaction to bad leadership. Whatever further damage that he manages to do, is still owned by the mismanagement caused by the prior administration.
    - consumer451 1y ago

mcphage 1y ago

> People became more anti-vax largely due to the prior administration more than RFKjr. People became more anti-vax because of the large contingent pushing anti-vax conspiracies to a credulous audience. The previous administration’s policies were a significant success. Any idea they were a failure or a mistake is wrong.

const_cast 1y ago
Right, I don't understand why these people are constructing these elaborate and convoluted mechanism for which anti-vax rhetoric increased. It's very simple: if you push more anti-vax talking points and conspiracies, then naturally those ideas will be more popular in the zeitgeist. And, well, the right in general has been doing just that. Two plus two, now there's a lot more anti-vax people.
- kcplate 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - const_cast 1y ago
    The Covid vaccine was, and remains, very effective and overall safe. What it never was, and was never advertised to be, is 100% effective or 100% safe. Because nothing is, even air and water. I don't know where people's obviously incorrect and unrealistic expectation of the Covid vaccine came from. Well, I can guess: anti-vax rhetoric. But, everyone on Earth should know that of course the Covid vaccine is not magic. Because no vaccines are magic. And no medicines are magic. And no substances are magic. When people say seatbelts are safe, I don't see gremlins coming out of the woodwork to "erm, akshually" that. But, as soon as someone says the Covid vaccine is safe, suddenly everyone is Helen Keller. This is not your first day on Earth. Please, stop acting stupid. Overall, yes, having the Covid vaccine lowers your risk of Covid-related bad things. It is effective, full stop. Please don't try to refute this or argue against because I just don't care.
    - Auracle 1y ago

Marsymars 1y ago

> I am not antivax but can we please stop pretending like our government and health authorities didn’t royally screw the pooch as it related to the COVID vaccine communications, mandates, etc…? In what way? (Specifically re: screwing the pooch around vaccines, and not other parts of the covid response.)

kcplate 1y ago
Lied about its efficacy primarily. Both Biden and Fauci are on record as saying basically “if you get the vaccine you won’t get Covid and can’t give Covid to another person”. People got the vaccine, vaccinated people still got Covid, vaccinated people still spread Covid. Then, even after it was apparent that the vaccine did not have the advertised benefit, they continued to press its use including mandates for federal employees and the military, encouraged censorship of social media conversation about the vaccine and its efficacy, as well as pressed covid vaccination of healthy children (who were among the least likely in the population to either get or spread the disease).
- cosmicgadget 1y ago
  Weird, my recollection is that they said you could still get covid but it would be extremely mild due to the presence of antibodies.
  - whateveracct 1y ago
    exactly. nobody said what GP said. it's concerntroll nonsense that plays well with the contrarian, "smart" HN crowd.
    - kcplate 1y ago
      Here are a bunch of “Nobodies” talking about vaccinated folks not getting sick (or very low chance of getting sick) and not being contagious and spreading the virus. We know now that this was all bullshit. We all can look back on this time and choose to remember what we want. I am going to remember the government mandating an ineffective vaccine and lying to me about it. https://youtu.be/3gYbfIThc7A?si=O4SCq-RwwEiWt_7W https://youtu.be/3gYbfIThc7A?si=O4SCq-RwwEiWt_7W

nitwit005 1y ago

> People became more anti-vax largely due to the prior administration more than RFKjr. I can remember Trump trying to take credit for funding the vaccine efforts, and getting nothing but negativity from his crowd. Unfortunately, it predates both presidents. It's just kept creeping upward in popularity, along with a lot of other conspiracy theories.

Auracle 1y ago
Facebook mom groups. That's the real issue, and it's weird that so few seem to realize it. Sure, they skew Republican because stay-at-home moms tend to skew that way too. As you said though, it all predates both presidents. It was the crunchy parents before COVID, and often times still is.
- kbelder 1y ago
  Sure, although I'd correct that some, in that prior to COVID anti-vax was more a leftist position. It switched political orientation in less than a couple year's time, which is fascinating.
thephyber 1y ago
Thanks, Jenny McCarthy…
jonlucc 1y ago
This is true, but leading up to the vaccine, he embraced every stupid conspiracy, related to COVID and before. Remember the bleach and sunshine press conference? A better leader who actually tried to understand the science at a basic level when they have their choice of incredible experts would have been better at communicating to the public from the beginning. He let the horse out of the barn, and that's famously hard to undo.