5 ms·

Paralympic athletes who harm themselves to perform better

47 points by darrhiggs 14y ago

solox3 14y ago
This is sad. This is not how you win, and your victory is not worth the glory.
- sp332 14y ago
  Why not? For example: sprinters injure themselves during training on a regular basis. Strength increases much faster when you train a bit past the point of injury and then heal, repeatedly.
jilebedev 14y ago
> When able-bodied competitors engage in hard physical activities like running or swimming, blood pressure and heart rate increase automatically. Athletes with spinal injuries do not get that response. Can anyone explain why a spinal cord injury would render a human unable to raise their blood pressure through strenuous physical exercise? It doesn't seem to make sense.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
  - brodney 14y ago
    > Athletes with spinal injuries do not get that response. Where does it explain why?
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
- maxerickson 14y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_nervous_system#Organization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_nervous_system#Orga...
- jaggederest 14y ago
  To summarize what I understand from the Wikipedia article, the neurons involved are located between the T1 and L1 levels of the spinal cord. If you have a spinal injury above L1, some of those neurons are disconnected from the brain, and thus cannot activate normal responses (e.g. fight or flight).
freehunter 14y ago
The entire paralympic games baffles me. Injuries which cause handicaps are incredibly diverse. The winner will be the one with the injuries that cause the least amount of disruption to their physical capabilities. I applaud the athletes who refuse to let tragic circumstances get in the way of the enjoyment of their sport, but having a level playing field in the Olympics is about who has the most performance out of a set of extraordinary but roughly equal human beings. It seems hard to get that same level of equality in the paralympics. Does anyone have any insight into how they match competitors to ensure a level playing field? Would someone with a normal heart rate increase ever be matched against someone with a spinal injury preventing normal heart rate increase, which would basically require this kind of pain training?
- pinko 14y ago
  It's not clear to me that the inequality of post-injury physical abilities in the paralympics is substantially different from the the inequality of innate physical abilities in the olympics. In both cases, a good portion of what competitors are measuring is "the playing field", where the playing field is their bodies. The rest is discipline, means to train, and psychology.
  - freehunter 14y ago
    In this case, the level playing field between Olympic athletes is that they have all four limbs and normal (or above) coordination and muscle capabilities. In the paralympics, I would consider a level playing field to be one where all the athletes were injured or disabled in a similar fashion. If one athlete is able to automatically raise his/her heart rate while the rest cannot, this is not a level playing field. Although it is an inspiring story to see athletes at a disadvantage even considering their competition in the paralympics still out there training hard, focusing on their personal goal, and succeeding where their fate has previously told them they cannot.
    - pinko 14y ago
      I think you're missing my point, which is that the performance range of people with "all four limbs and normal (or above) coordination and muscle capabilities" is at least as great as the performance range of people with diverse injuries. So although it may seem orderly to you in the abstract, it's pointless and arbitrary to organize the paralympics based on type of injury if you're simultaneously allowing a much greater range of abilities to compete in the olympics. If you really care that much about controlling for physical ability, you need to sort people based on some kind of meaningful sport-specific measure which more reliably segregates people's capabilities regardless of age, gender, injury, etc. But injury type (and for that matter gender and age) are extraordinarily poor proxies which in practice often prevent people from competing against their physical peers.
mhb 14y ago
How can a quadriplegic be a climber?
- colanderman 14y ago
  Look at the picture in the article.
  - mhb 14y ago
    Thanks for the tip. I did that before asking and I saw a guy kind of standing with a lot of equipment behind him. Prior to the useful other reply, I thought that being a quadriplegic implied you couldn't move your arms or legs.
- FigBug 14y ago
  Quadriplegic is partial loss of function of all limbs. Usually total loss in the legs, partial loss in the core and arms. A break between C1-C4 will probably have total loss of arm function where C5-C7 may just be fingers.
chimeracoder 14y ago
Part of what makes watching people with disabilities compete in events so heartwarming to watch is being able to share in their victory. But what kind of victory is it? I used to wrestle competitively, and I still believe that it's the most underrated sport, partly for the following reason: Wrestling is undeniably a team sport - matches are scored for the entire team, and the support and camaraderie between teammates is not an empty gesture; I can't imagine a successful team that lacks this. But on the other hand, when you and your opponent are on the mat for your six minutes, you're the only one fighting for your team - all the pressure is on you and you alone. Most importantly, this makes victories personal. You can win your match even if the team loses, and vice versa. You can lose your match and still help the team win (by keeping the margin of victory low, which impacts the score). You can have a personal triumph, and your teammates will share in that, regardless of the outcome of the team's score. I know less about the Paralympics than the Special Olympics (and yes, I know they're different), but to me, both always stood out to me as wonderful reminders of the true importance of sportsmanship - not athleticism, but sportsmanship. Part of that is about treating your opponent with respect, which is how we usually hear the word, but part of it is about treating yourself with respect. A dishonorable victory may help your team/country, but for you personally, it's a defeat. On the other hand, being able to overcome a personal struggle, even if you don't "win" the match, qualifies as a victory in my book, and as a spectator, I like being able to celebrate that with the athlete. Knowing that somebody is artificially harming their body in order to boost some artificial metric (like their race time), or even to gain an edge over their opponent - that's not a good way to treat yourself as an athlete. But that robs me of my vicarious joy as well. And that's a horrible way to treat your teammate.
- mindcrime 14y ago
  > Wrestling is undeniably a team sport - matches are scored > for the entire team Hey Otto, I've got news for you. Wrestling is not a team sport. When you're out there against a guy who is faster and stronger than you, there isn't a whole hell of a lot your team can do for you."[1] > I know less about the Paralympics than the Special Olympics (and yes, I know they're different), but to me, both always stood out to me as wonderful reminders of the true importance of sportsmanship - not athleticism, but sportsmanship. No doubt, good sportsmanship is an admirable quality. But is it really reasonable to expect the Paralympics or Special Olympics to be any more of an exemplar of that, than any other athletic competition? At the end of the day, the participants are still people... with ego, vanity, jealousy and whole gamut of human emotions. [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090270/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090270/
tucaz 14y ago
I'm not entirely sure as why, but as I read the article, specially the guy smashing his toe to increase the blood pressure I felt really bad. They are in a really bad shape, but still will do things like that to win. Not sure what to think of it.
- nivla 14y ago
  I din't feel bad for them, I moreover lost respect for them. Damaging your body more to prove that disability can't stand in your way to success is pathetic and hypocritical. Sadly this just makes me less interested in watching the Paralympics.
  - CamperBob2 14y ago
    (Shrug) I gained respect for them. Many if not most of those who compete in a so-called "normal" athletic event either damaged their body to get there, or will damage it intentionally during the competition. (Have you ever watched an American football game, for Pete's sake? Do you have any idea what those guys are doing to themselves? Smashing a toe is the least of their concerns.) What I read was an article about people hacking their bodies to get to levels of performance they wouldn't otherwise be capable of. In this case the athletes' bodies are already damaged, typically in ways that would stop the rest of us in our tracks. My opinion is contrarian and I don't expect to see much agreement here or elsewhere. But then, I've also argued that there should be an "unlimited" category in sports like cycling where the athlete with the best drug lab wins.
    - nivla 14y ago
      >Have you ever watched an American football game, for Pete's sake? Do you have any idea what those guys are doing to themselves? You mean the game where you get to wear one million paddings that makes even skinniest person look buffed up? I would have gone with Rugby as a better example of being brutal. However, you argument still doesn't hold because in these cases you are not self inflicting a damage on yourself. Sure you are more likely to get hurt during the game and have a higher chance of causing a permanent damage but there is a big difference between doing that to yourself just to win a game and being a part of an accident. Whatever happened to the term Sportsmanship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship ? >What I read was an article about people hacking their bodies to get to levels of performance they wouldn't otherwise be capable of. That argument would have a better merit if they were to compete against the "normal" athletes. However they are not, they are competing against people who has similar disabilities and limitations like them. So its will be a fair game if they don't resort to such performance enhancing methods.
EliRivers 14y ago
Hack themselves to perform better, surely?

47 points by darrhiggs 14y ago

solox3 14y ago

This is sad. This is not how you win, and your victory is not worth the glory.

sp332 14y ago
Why not? For example: sprinters injure themselves during training on a regular basis. Strength increases much faster when you train a bit past the point of injury and then heal, repeatedly.

jilebedev 14y ago

> When able-bodied competitors engage in hard physical activities like running or swimming, blood pressure and heart rate increase automatically. Athletes with spinal injuries do not get that response. Can anyone explain why a spinal cord injury would render a human unable to raise their blood pressure through strenuous physical exercise? It doesn't seem to make sense.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
- brodney 14y ago
  > Athletes with spinal injuries do not get that response. Where does it explain why?
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
maxerickson 14y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_nervous_system#Organization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_nervous_system#Orga...
jaggederest 14y ago
To summarize what I understand from the Wikipedia article, the neurons involved are located between the T1 and L1 levels of the spinal cord. If you have a spinal injury above L1, some of those neurons are disconnected from the brain, and thus cannot activate normal responses (e.g. fight or flight).

freehunter 14y ago

The entire paralympic games baffles me. Injuries which cause handicaps are incredibly diverse. The winner will be the one with the injuries that cause the least amount of disruption to their physical capabilities. I applaud the athletes who refuse to let tragic circumstances get in the way of the enjoyment of their sport, but having a level playing field in the Olympics is about who has the most performance out of a set of extraordinary but roughly equal human beings. It seems hard to get that same level of equality in the paralympics. Does anyone have any insight into how they match competitors to ensure a level playing field? Would someone with a normal heart rate increase ever be matched against someone with a spinal injury preventing normal heart rate increase, which would basically require this kind of pain training?

pinko 14y ago
It's not clear to me that the inequality of post-injury physical abilities in the paralympics is substantially different from the the inequality of innate physical abilities in the olympics. In both cases, a good portion of what competitors are measuring is "the playing field", where the playing field is their bodies. The rest is discipline, means to train, and psychology.
- freehunter 14y ago
  In this case, the level playing field between Olympic athletes is that they have all four limbs and normal (or above) coordination and muscle capabilities. In the paralympics, I would consider a level playing field to be one where all the athletes were injured or disabled in a similar fashion. If one athlete is able to automatically raise his/her heart rate while the rest cannot, this is not a level playing field. Although it is an inspiring story to see athletes at a disadvantage even considering their competition in the paralympics still out there training hard, focusing on their personal goal, and succeeding where their fate has previously told them they cannot.
  - pinko 14y ago
    I think you're missing my point, which is that the performance range of people with "all four limbs and normal (or above) coordination and muscle capabilities" is at least as great as the performance range of people with diverse injuries. So although it may seem orderly to you in the abstract, it's pointless and arbitrary to organize the paralympics based on type of injury if you're simultaneously allowing a much greater range of abilities to compete in the olympics. If you really care that much about controlling for physical ability, you need to sort people based on some kind of meaningful sport-specific measure which more reliably segregates people's capabilities regardless of age, gender, injury, etc. But injury type (and for that matter gender and age) are extraordinarily poor proxies which in practice often prevent people from competing against their physical peers.

mhb 14y ago

How can a quadriplegic be a climber?

colanderman 14y ago
Look at the picture in the article.
- mhb 14y ago
  Thanks for the tip. I did that before asking and I saw a guy kind of standing with a lot of equipment behind him. Prior to the useful other reply, I thought that being a quadriplegic implied you couldn't move your arms or legs.
FigBug 14y ago
Quadriplegic is partial loss of function of all limbs. Usually total loss in the legs, partial loss in the core and arms. A break between C1-C4 will probably have total loss of arm function where C5-C7 may just be fingers.

chimeracoder 14y ago

Part of what makes watching people with disabilities compete in events so heartwarming to watch is being able to share in their victory. But what kind of victory is it? I used to wrestle competitively, and I still believe that it's the most underrated sport, partly for the following reason: Wrestling is undeniably a team sport - matches are scored for the entire team, and the support and camaraderie between teammates is not an empty gesture; I can't imagine a successful team that lacks this. But on the other hand, when you and your opponent are on the mat for your six minutes, you're the only one fighting for your team - all the pressure is on you and you alone. Most importantly, this makes victories personal. You can win your match even if the team loses, and vice versa. You can lose your match and still help the team win (by keeping the margin of victory low, which impacts the score). You can have a personal triumph, and your teammates will share in that, regardless of the outcome of the team's score. I know less about the Paralympics than the Special Olympics (and yes, I know they're different), but to me, both always stood out to me as wonderful reminders of the true importance of sportsmanship - not athleticism, but sportsmanship. Part of that is about treating your opponent with respect, which is how we usually hear the word, but part of it is about treating yourself with respect. A dishonorable victory may help your team/country, but for you personally, it's a defeat. On the other hand, being able to overcome a personal struggle, even if you don't "win" the match, qualifies as a victory in my book, and as a spectator, I like being able to celebrate that with the athlete. Knowing that somebody is artificially harming their body in order to boost some artificial metric (like their race time), or even to gain an edge over their opponent - that's not a good way to treat yourself as an athlete. But that robs me of my vicarious joy as well. And that's a horrible way to treat your teammate.

mindcrime 14y ago
> Wrestling is undeniably a team sport - matches are scored > for the entire team Hey Otto, I've got news for you. Wrestling is not a team sport. When you're out there against a guy who is faster and stronger than you, there isn't a whole hell of a lot your team can do for you."[1] > I know less about the Paralympics than the Special Olympics (and yes, I know they're different), but to me, both always stood out to me as wonderful reminders of the true importance of sportsmanship - not athleticism, but sportsmanship. No doubt, good sportsmanship is an admirable quality. But is it really reasonable to expect the Paralympics or Special Olympics to be any more of an exemplar of that, than any other athletic competition? At the end of the day, the participants are still people... with ego, vanity, jealousy and whole gamut of human emotions. [1]: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090270/ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090270/

tucaz 14y ago

I'm not entirely sure as why, but as I read the article, specially the guy smashing his toe to increase the blood pressure I felt really bad. They are in a really bad shape, but still will do things like that to win. Not sure what to think of it.

nivla 14y ago
I din't feel bad for them, I moreover lost respect for them. Damaging your body more to prove that disability can't stand in your way to success is pathetic and hypocritical. Sadly this just makes me less interested in watching the Paralympics.
- CamperBob2 14y ago
  (Shrug) I gained respect for them. Many if not most of those who compete in a so-called "normal" athletic event either damaged their body to get there, or will damage it intentionally during the competition. (Have you ever watched an American football game, for Pete's sake? Do you have any idea what those guys are doing to themselves? Smashing a toe is the least of their concerns.) What I read was an article about people hacking their bodies to get to levels of performance they wouldn't otherwise be capable of. In this case the athletes' bodies are already damaged, typically in ways that would stop the rest of us in our tracks. My opinion is contrarian and I don't expect to see much agreement here or elsewhere. But then, I've also argued that there should be an "unlimited" category in sports like cycling where the athlete with the best drug lab wins.
  - nivla 14y ago
    >Have you ever watched an American football game, for Pete's sake? Do you have any idea what those guys are doing to themselves? You mean the game where you get to wear one million paddings that makes even skinniest person look buffed up? I would have gone with Rugby as a better example of being brutal. However, you argument still doesn't hold because in these cases you are not self inflicting a damage on yourself. Sure you are more likely to get hurt during the game and have a higher chance of causing a permanent damage but there is a big difference between doing that to yourself just to win a game and being a part of an accident. Whatever happened to the term Sportsmanship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsmanship ? >What I read was an article about people hacking their bodies to get to levels of performance they wouldn't otherwise be capable of. That argument would have a better merit if they were to compete against the "normal" athletes. However they are not, they are competing against people who has similar disabilities and limitations like them. So its will be a fair game if they don't resort to such performance enhancing methods.

EliRivers 14y ago

Hack themselves to perform better, surely?