7 ms·

Third-party compilers locked out of Windows Runtime development

37 points by mariuz 14y ago

dragonbonheur 14y ago
Is it really an issue? WinRt is a new platform and if I remember correctly, in the beginning you could not code against anything but the Dalvik VM on Android (that's Java) and iDevices could only be programmed in Objective C. The way I see technology moving anyway is that with cheap boards like Raspberry Pi and other cheap hardware like that, within 7 years, people will be able to mix and match components and build their own tablets just like they build PCs today. Within 4 years the vast majority of Shanzhai tablets will have more than 7 hours of usable battery life AND will be able to accept alternative operating systems like Puppy Linux, Debian or Firefox OS. By that time the new frontier will be wearable smart glasses, but how fancy does humanity need to get for cheap,ubiquitous portable computing? Windows RT, iOS and to a lesser extent, Android might be less relevant by then. Especially when you can run an IDE like GAMBAS on a humble Raspberry Pi with Linux. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Linux fanboy; I like Windows too but the industry has a better chance of using a commodity OS than paying royalties to Microsoft for every Android device sold, like some manufacturers are already doing, or even paying $30 per device as in Apple's wet dreams...
- mrich 14y ago
  But the Android vendors are already using a commodity OS in Linux, but still have to pay Microsoft patent royalties on it.
  - grimboy 14y ago
    It's hard to collect royalties from individual users.
    - reddit_clone 14y ago
      They can always learn from RIAA/MPAA folks.
    - sseveran 14y ago
      They will charge the manufacturers who in turn will charge you.
  - dragonbonheur 14y ago
    As far as I know, the payments are for Android-specific features that those devices use. I don't think it has ever been proven that Linux infringes Microsoft Patents. In fact Microsoft contributed code to Linux and continues to do so (81980085). If there are violations, the most serious are about some FAT/VFAT patents and the Linux developer community can come up with alternative filesystems on solid-state disks. From http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/05/28/100033867/index.htm http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/... << But he does break down the total number allegedly violated - 235 - into categories. He says that the Linux kernel - the deepest layer of the free operating system, which interacts most directly with the computer hardware - violates 42 Microsoft patents. The Linux graphical user interfaces - essentially, the way design elements like menus and toolbars are set up - run afoul of another 65, he claims. The Open Office suite of programs, which is analogous to Microsoft Office, infringes 45 more. E-mail programs infringe 15, while other assorted FOSS programs allegedly transgress 68. >> So who must they sue? Right now, I'm sure Microsoft enjoys being perceived as less lawsuit-happy than Apple.
    - freehunter 14y ago
      There's no point in using lawsuits to shut down someone you don't feel threatened by. It's bad press and a waste of money. Microsoft removed Linux from its list of threats [1] this year, and it's questionable to me if Linux was ever a threat to Microsoft's profits. Microsoft is unlikely to sue Linux developers in general for the reasons above, but once something rises above and becomes a threat (Android), they'll bring the hammer down. Whether or not these patent claims are legitimate or not, some Android vendors apparently found that it was more cost-effective to license rather than battle it out in court. [1] http://www.neowin.net/news/micorosft-no-longers-considers-linux-a-threat-for-desktops http://www.neowin.net/news/micorosft-no-longers-considers-li...
eckyptang 14y ago
I think the EU might get the nightstick out again if they pull this. A lot of vendors are piggybacking on MS and this will mean anti-competitive behavior. Also, WinRT is a pretty big land grab by Microsoft and it's pissed a large number of developers off. If they kill the current ecosystem or lock people into a narrow subset of it, there is no longer a market or ecosystem. Simple as. The same is not true for Apple, who built an ecosystem from nothing. They're not cutting anyone off. Most of the MS-oriented development staff I know (100+ people) are starting to look at exit strategies from the MS ecosystem. Most of them have Apple machines and/or Linux native machines and VM's on the go. Quite a few have jumped ship to Java enterprise outfits already. When the rats start leaving...
- freehunter 14y ago
  I think the EU might get the nightstick out again if they pull this. I wouldn't be surprised, but it would also be bullshit. The same is not true for Apple, who built an ecosystem from nothing. They're not cutting anyone off. Does WinRT have a history? I think it'd be pretty safe to say that WinRT is an ecosystem built from nothing in the same way iOS is a ecosystem built from nothing. It's using base technology from a much older system, but implemented in a completely different way. There is no current market or ecosystem for WinRT.
munin 14y ago
> Thanks to .NET support, Microsoft does have a measure support for alternative languages; it is the Common Language Runtime after all. What would be better though would be to support LLVM, as Apple does on iOS this is super confusing. iOS can run LLVM bitcode? I would link to the "LLVM IR is a compiler IR" email, but UIUCs email archive server is down ...
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- pjmlp 14y ago
  Some people still seem to have problems discussing about compilers and respective runtimes.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  That's just wrong anyway. You can't use .NET from RT. You can however provide new projections for another language though. (Fun fact, there are now 3 C++ variants in Windows. C++ C++/CX C++/.NET)
  - tedunangst 14y ago
    How many variants of C are there in OS X? :)
freehunter 14y ago
Windows 8′s ‘dirty little secret A dirty little secret which happens to be common knowledge and is mentioned in the tech press at least once a week for pretty much the last year. Yet somehow it still seems to provoke outrage from people who continue to insist that Microsoft is abusing a non-existent monopoly in a market they have no presence in.
- hahainternet 14y ago
  I don't think a company needs a monopoly to be rightly slated over their anticompetitive actions.
  - freehunter 14y ago
    Well, I don't want to have to buy a Mac and buy a copy of XCode to make an iOS app either, but that's pretty much accepted. You can use whatever you want to create a desktop program. If this decision was about destroying competitive languages and software, that seems like a pretty big oversight on the behalf of these evil masterminds. edit - georgemcbay points out that XCode is free. My mistake.
    - georgemcbay 14y ago
      Before anyone else jumps in on this one thing... XCode is free. However, the point is still valid. Unless you're willing to enter the grey world of hackintoshing, you need a Mac to develop for iOS (required for code signing step) regardless of how you build your app, even if you use a third-party compiler like the MonoTouch one.
      - kpeel 14y ago
        But Visual Studio Express is also free.
        freehunter 14y ago
        The shame in it all is that you can't just use the computer you already have. iOS development requires a Mac and Windows RT development requires Windows. It sucks when any manufacturer locks you in and prevents you from using portable code. It ups the expense of developing a cross-platform application significantly. I guess at least if you own a Mac, you're allowed to run Windows on the hardware as well. The same can't be said in reverse, due to software licensing restrictions.
BudVVeezer 14y ago
Third-party compilers are already locked out of Win32 development to a large degree thanks to patents on things like SEH (32-bit) and access to the native intrinsics. Why people are up in arms over WinRT is beyond me.
- JoshTriplett 14y ago
  MinGW has worked on Windows for years, and has the advantage of working as a cross-compiler from other platforms, which makes it easier to build releases for multiple platforms on one system.
tedunangst 14y ago
I don't get this at all. You have to link against the same DLLs and you can only call a subset of system calls, but you can use whatever native code generator you want. MS isn't hexdumping the binary to see if the instruction ordering matches what VS generates. And if that's too hard, the tried and true technique of generating C code in your backend will surely work, as third party compilers have been doing for decades.

37 points by mariuz 14y ago

Is it really an issue? WinRt is a new platform and if I remember correctly, in the beginning you could not code against anything but the Dalvik VM on Android (that's Java) and iDevices could only be programmed in Objective C. The way I see technology moving anyway is that with cheap boards like Raspberry Pi and other cheap hardware like that, within 7 years, people will be able to mix and match components and build their own tablets just like they build PCs today. Within 4 years the vast majority of Shanzhai tablets will have more than 7 hours of usable battery life AND will be able to accept alternative operating systems like Puppy Linux, Debian or Firefox OS. By that time the new frontier will be wearable smart glasses, but how fancy does humanity need to get for cheap,ubiquitous portable computing? Windows RT, iOS and to a lesser extent, Android might be less relevant by then. Especially when you can run an IDE like GAMBAS on a humble Raspberry Pi with Linux. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Linux fanboy; I like Windows too but the industry has a better chance of using a commodity OS than paying royalties to Microsoft for every Android device sold, like some manufacturers are already doing, or even paying $30 per device as in Apple's wet dreams...

mrich 14y ago
But the Android vendors are already using a commodity OS in Linux, but still have to pay Microsoft patent royalties on it.
- grimboy 14y ago
  It's hard to collect royalties from individual users.
  - reddit_clone 14y ago
    They can always learn from RIAA/MPAA folks.
  - sseveran 14y ago
    They will charge the manufacturers who in turn will charge you.
- dragonbonheur 14y ago
  As far as I know, the payments are for Android-specific features that those devices use. I don't think it has ever been proven that Linux infringes Microsoft Patents. In fact Microsoft contributed code to Linux and continues to do so (81980085). If there are violations, the most serious are about some FAT/VFAT patents and the Linux developer community can come up with alternative filesystems on solid-state disks. From http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/05/28/100033867/index.htm http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/... << But he does break down the total number allegedly violated - 235 - into categories. He says that the Linux kernel - the deepest layer of the free operating system, which interacts most directly with the computer hardware - violates 42 Microsoft patents. The Linux graphical user interfaces - essentially, the way design elements like menus and toolbars are set up - run afoul of another 65, he claims. The Open Office suite of programs, which is analogous to Microsoft Office, infringes 45 more. E-mail programs infringe 15, while other assorted FOSS programs allegedly transgress 68. >> So who must they sue? Right now, I'm sure Microsoft enjoys being perceived as less lawsuit-happy than Apple.
  - freehunter 14y ago
    There's no point in using lawsuits to shut down someone you don't feel threatened by. It's bad press and a waste of money. Microsoft removed Linux from its list of threats [1] this year, and it's questionable to me if Linux was ever a threat to Microsoft's profits. Microsoft is unlikely to sue Linux developers in general for the reasons above, but once something rises above and becomes a threat (Android), they'll bring the hammer down. Whether or not these patent claims are legitimate or not, some Android vendors apparently found that it was more cost-effective to license rather than battle it out in court. [1] http://www.neowin.net/news/micorosft-no-longers-considers-linux-a-threat-for-desktops http://www.neowin.net/news/micorosft-no-longers-considers-li...

eckyptang 14y ago

I think the EU might get the nightstick out again if they pull this. A lot of vendors are piggybacking on MS and this will mean anti-competitive behavior. Also, WinRT is a pretty big land grab by Microsoft and it's pissed a large number of developers off. If they kill the current ecosystem or lock people into a narrow subset of it, there is no longer a market or ecosystem. Simple as. The same is not true for Apple, who built an ecosystem from nothing. They're not cutting anyone off. Most of the MS-oriented development staff I know (100+ people) are starting to look at exit strategies from the MS ecosystem. Most of them have Apple machines and/or Linux native machines and VM's on the go. Quite a few have jumped ship to Java enterprise outfits already. When the rats start leaving...

freehunter 14y ago
I think the EU might get the nightstick out again if they pull this. I wouldn't be surprised, but it would also be bullshit. The same is not true for Apple, who built an ecosystem from nothing. They're not cutting anyone off. Does WinRT have a history? I think it'd be pretty safe to say that WinRT is an ecosystem built from nothing in the same way iOS is a ecosystem built from nothing. It's using base technology from a much older system, but implemented in a completely different way. There is no current market or ecosystem for WinRT.

munin 14y ago

> Thanks to .NET support, Microsoft does have a measure support for alternative languages; it is the Common Language Runtime after all. What would be better though would be to support LLVM, as Apple does on iOS this is super confusing. iOS can run LLVM bitcode? I would link to the "LLVM IR is a compiler IR" email, but UIUCs email archive server is down ...

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
pjmlp 14y ago
Some people still seem to have problems discussing about compilers and respective runtimes.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
That's just wrong anyway. You can't use .NET from RT. You can however provide new projections for another language though. (Fun fact, there are now 3 C++ variants in Windows. C++ C++/CX C++/.NET)
- tedunangst 14y ago
  How many variants of C are there in OS X? :)

freehunter 14y ago

Windows 8′s ‘dirty little secret A dirty little secret which happens to be common knowledge and is mentioned in the tech press at least once a week for pretty much the last year. Yet somehow it still seems to provoke outrage from people who continue to insist that Microsoft is abusing a non-existent monopoly in a market they have no presence in.

hahainternet 14y ago
I don't think a company needs a monopoly to be rightly slated over their anticompetitive actions.
- freehunter 14y ago
  Well, I don't want to have to buy a Mac and buy a copy of XCode to make an iOS app either, but that's pretty much accepted. You can use whatever you want to create a desktop program. If this decision was about destroying competitive languages and software, that seems like a pretty big oversight on the behalf of these evil masterminds. edit - georgemcbay points out that XCode is free. My mistake.
  - georgemcbay 14y ago
    Before anyone else jumps in on this one thing... XCode is free. However, the point is still valid. Unless you're willing to enter the grey world of hackintoshing, you need a Mac to develop for iOS (required for code signing step) regardless of how you build your app, even if you use a third-party compiler like the MonoTouch one.
    - kpeel 14y ago
      But Visual Studio Express is also free.
      - freehunter 14y ago
        The shame in it all is that you can't just use the computer you already have. iOS development requires a Mac and Windows RT development requires Windows. It sucks when any manufacturer locks you in and prevents you from using portable code. It ups the expense of developing a cross-platform application significantly. I guess at least if you own a Mac, you're allowed to run Windows on the hardware as well. The same can't be said in reverse, due to software licensing restrictions.

BudVVeezer 14y ago

Third-party compilers are already locked out of Win32 development to a large degree thanks to patents on things like SEH (32-bit) and access to the native intrinsics. Why people are up in arms over WinRT is beyond me.

JoshTriplett 14y ago
MinGW has worked on Windows for years, and has the advantage of working as a cross-compiler from other platforms, which makes it easier to build releases for multiple platforms on one system.

tedunangst 14y ago

I don't get this at all. You have to link against the same DLLs and you can only call a subset of system calls, but you can use whatever native code generator you want. MS isn't hexdumping the binary to see if the instruction ordering matches what VS generates. And if that's too hard, the tried and true technique of generating C code in your backend will surely work, as third party compilers have been doing for decades.