4 ms·

Public transit isn’t supposed to have a financial “ROI.” Are highways expected to turn a profit from tolls?

by rafram 1y ago

bluGill 1y ago
The libertarian answer is yes highways should. Most self proclaimed libertarians refuse to go that far - if you allow for highways to not make money then transit shouldn't be held to the higher bar.
- charlieyu1 1y ago
  I always find this a dumb idea. Transportation networks enable things to happen that comes back as taxes, that is. Same for education, or other public services.
xnx 1y ago
Fair, but how unprofitable should they be? -$5/passenger-mike? -$12/passenger-mile? I think we can do a lot better than the current US mass transit status quo.
- rafram 1y ago
  In 2022, the NYC Subway budgeted about $0.75 per passenger-mile (and that was during Covid, when ridership was very low) [1]. You’re really overestimating how much public transit costs to run. Private vehicles are an extremely inefficient way to move people around, hence the cost of Uber/Lyft/taxis. [1]: https://data.transportation.gov/Public-Transit/2022-2023-NTD-Annual-Data-Metrics/ekg5-frzt/explore/query/SELECT%0A%20%20%60agency%60%2C%0A%20%20%60mode%60%2C%0A%20%20sum%28%60total_operating_expenses%60%29%20AS%20%60sum_total_operating_expenses%60%2C%0A%20%20sum%28%60vehicle_revenue_miles%60%29%20AS%20%60sum_vehicle_revenue_miles%60%0AGROUP%20BY%20%60agency%60%2C%20%60mode%60/page/aggregate https://data.transportation.gov/Public-Transit/2022-2023-NTD...
  - xnx 1y ago
    NYC is special in that it's on of the few places that subways make sense in America. That said, operating costs are common but extremely misleading way to measure transit costs when new tunnel costs $2.2B/mile.
  - xnx 1y ago
    That's a useful data set. Thanks for sharing. NYC is special in that it's one of the few places that subways make sense in America. That said, operating costs are common but extremely misleading way to measure transit costs when new tunnel costs $2.2B/mile.
    - mitthrowaway2 1y ago
      The proper way to recoup the capital cost is through the increase to land values that arise from building the railway. You buy land around the future stations and put a shopping mall or business center on top.
      - Ericson2314 1y ago
        That and/or land value tax, yes.
    - Ericson2314 1y ago
      > NYC is special in that it's one of the few places that subways make sense in America. The built environment is not fixed or exogenous. NYC is great for the subway because it was built around the Subway. If America followed international best practices, it could go a long ways towards steering other places' built environments too.

Public transit isn’t supposed to have a financial “ROI.” Are highways expected to turn a profit from tolls?

by rafram 1y ago

Public transit isn’t supposed to have a financial “ROI.” Are highways expected to turn a profit from tolls?

The libertarian answer is yes highways should. Most self proclaimed libertarians refuse to go that far - if you allow for highways to not make money then transit shouldn't be held to the higher bar.

charlieyu1 1y ago
I always find this a dumb idea. Transportation networks enable things to happen that comes back as taxes, that is. Same for education, or other public services.

xnx 1y ago

Fair, but how unprofitable should they be? -$5/passenger-mike? -$12/passenger-mile? I think we can do a lot better than the current US mass transit status quo.

rafram 1y ago
In 2022, the NYC Subway budgeted about $0.75 per passenger-mile (and that was during Covid, when ridership was very low) [1]. You’re really overestimating how much public transit costs to run. Private vehicles are an extremely inefficient way to move people around, hence the cost of Uber/Lyft/taxis. [1]: https://data.transportation.gov/Public-Transit/2022-2023-NTD-Annual-Data-Metrics/ekg5-frzt/explore/query/SELECT%0A%20%20%60agency%60%2C%0A%20%20%60mode%60%2C%0A%20%20sum%28%60total_operating_expenses%60%29%20AS%20%60sum_total_operating_expenses%60%2C%0A%20%20sum%28%60vehicle_revenue_miles%60%29%20AS%20%60sum_vehicle_revenue_miles%60%0AGROUP%20BY%20%60agency%60%2C%20%60mode%60/page/aggregate https://data.transportation.gov/Public-Transit/2022-2023-NTD...
- xnx 1y ago
  NYC is special in that it's on of the few places that subways make sense in America. That said, operating costs are common but extremely misleading way to measure transit costs when new tunnel costs $2.2B/mile.
- xnx 1y ago
  That's a useful data set. Thanks for sharing. NYC is special in that it's one of the few places that subways make sense in America. That said, operating costs are common but extremely misleading way to measure transit costs when new tunnel costs $2.2B/mile.
  - mitthrowaway2 1y ago
    The proper way to recoup the capital cost is through the increase to land values that arise from building the railway. You buy land around the future stations and put a shopping mall or business center on top.
    - Ericson2314 1y ago
      That and/or land value tax, yes.
  - Ericson2314 1y ago
    > NYC is special in that it's one of the few places that subways make sense in America. The built environment is not fixed or exogenous. NYC is great for the subway because it was built around the Subway. If America followed international best practices, it could go a long ways towards steering other places' built environments too.