4 ms·

Turning into one? It's been one for at least the last twenty years.

johnea 1y ago
I read that article this morning, that was also my reaction. Do they not remember Snowden? Although the level of accessing "social media" posts, and internal government docs, for use in persecution of an individual is rising to new levels with The Cheato administration.
- BirAdam 1y ago
  Although, Cheatos are the wrong shade of orange. I feel like the Orange Immigration Man is something more like a Kraft Single.
esafak 1y ago
The problem is that people become used to the conditions they are living in, so the disaster is always in the future. People expect some sharp, intolerable transition.
- SlightlyLeftPad 1y ago
  Traveling abroad to asian countries it becomes immediately and shockingly clear how intolerable surveillance really can be. Between having your face and fingerprints scanned on a pirated windows xp pc to being fined heavily for going 51 kph in 50 zone it can be hard to imagine how much worse it can get from there, but it can.
  - jdsnape 1y ago
    I’m interested in how strong your reaction is to those two examples. Could you explain why those are such terrible things?
    - FridayoLeary 1y ago
      Come on. It's blindingly obvious to anyone not used to these things why it's inherently bad. To people who live in a police state you eventually get used to such things. For example i really believe that traffic enforcement cameras are state oppression. They create more human suffering then they prevent. it's just that people are used to it so they don't protest.
      - jdsnape 1y ago
        I asked because it wasn’t blindingly obvious, and I genuinely want to understand. Taking the traffic enforcement then - we’re talking about a dangerous piece of machinery that you’re allowed to operate in a public place under certain conditions in order to reduce the risk to others. One of those conditions is speed. It seems blindingly obvious to me that if a society agrees those conditions it should also enforce them?
        FridayoLeary 1y ago
        Yes but speed cameras quickly turn into a revenue source for greedy councils. It's hard to tell how much they actually care about speeding offences and doing what they think they can get away with. As a general rule these things start with sincere intentions but often devolve into cynical exploitation. So if you weigh the benefits of speed cameras against the suffering they cause i think you would find they aren't a good thing. Getting to your original question i think many people don't trust that their face and fingerprint scans will be used in a way that would be in the publics interest. Its more likely that the authorities would find a way to use that data against you.
        gregjor 1y ago
        How exactly do you weigh the “suffering” — I would call it inconvenience or annoyance — of traffic fines against bodily harm caused by dangerous drivers? A fine versus a hospital stay or worse?
        1y ago
  - bitwize 1y ago
    Entering Japan there's a nice friendly line marked "Japanese" where everyone just passes in smoothly, and a grim dystopian line marked "Foreigner" at which your fingerprints and photo are taken before you're allowed entry. It's like humans vs. fookin' prawns in District 9. And this is Japan, one of the more liberal East Asian states. Japanese businesses often refuse foreigners outright, or, like famed cheap-goods retailer Don Quijote, have notices posted indicating they can demand you cough up your passport at any time, so have it ready before entering. At least the customs agents were friendly, in that Japanese way, even as they asked me probing questions like why I flew in from Helsinki on Finnair instead of over the Pacific on an American airline. Though they seemed content with my answer ("because it was cheaper").
    - alkh 1y ago
      To be fair, getting fingerprints and photo taken is a standard nowadays for many countries in the world, especially if you need to apply for a visa. My guess would be that this is a norm for the majority of people not from the first-world countries. I personally had to do that for Canada, Japan, and EU
      - bitwize 1y ago
        I flew through the EU on my way into Japan and didn't have to get printed. The bored Parisian customs guy didn't even stamp my passport properly... which caused a bit of trouble when I landed in Helsinki. But no one, not even the Finns, demanded my fingerprints. Of course, this was 2011, which was forever ago in national-security time.
        gregjor 1y ago
        Finland along with most of the rest of western Europe will roll out biometric identification ( fingerprints and photos) as part of the delayed ETIAS program, scheduled for this year.
    - gregjor 1y ago
      You gave some exaggerations and misinterpretations. Every country has separate immigration lines for citizens and foreigners. Immigration officials have access to national databases but not those of other countries. Like the USA and most other countries Japan has biometric data associated with passports, but only has direct access to match that for Japanese passports. Perhaps you have never experienced the “dystopian” foreigner entry process in the USA or your own country. Don Quijote has no such signs and does not demand your passport to enter or shop. If you want to get the VAT refunded — a privilege many countries extend to foreign tourists — you can do that by showing you have a tourist visa. Essentially duty-free shopping extended out of the airport. The USA does not have a national VAT so no American store needs a passport to refund taxes. Japanese businesses do sometimes exclude foreigners, mainly because they don’t have multilingual staff, but also because they want to reserve some places for Japanese and not have tourists overrun every locals restaurant and bar. Customs and immigration officials everywhere ask probing questions to catch smugglers and criminals. Annoying perhaps but hardly a Japanese thing. Part of the job description. You have no right to enter a foreign country, the immigration officers get to determine that.
  - gregjor 1y ago
    On the other hand, as an American citizen living in Asia after spending most of my life in the USA, I like not getting mugged, assaulted, or run over by a speeding car. I think you refer to China, or maybe Japan or Singapore. Not every country in Asia has advanced surveillance. The UK, Canada, and America have advanced the same technology but use it in other ways, which is why American police can’t make the subways or roads safe like the Japanese have, but monitor your social media posts and emails for signs of terrorism and political dissent.
  - sometimes_all 1y ago
    > Between having your face and fingerprints scanned I'll assume you aren't familiar with a US visa consular appointment.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  > People expect some sharp, intolerable transition. Didn't this actually occur at the start of the year?
1oooqooq 1y ago
it was all downhill since the red scare
- morkalork 1y ago
  Ever since McCarthy where friends, neighbors and co-workers were pressed into narcing and ratting on each other.
jjav 1y ago
> It's been one for at least the last twenty years. Ubiquitous smartphones have racheted this up to a level before unimaginable. Imagine saying in 1990 that in 2025 everyone will be carrying a locator device which tracks their whereabouts 24/7 and who they associate with and message with.
- Hizonner 1y ago
  Apparently in China you'll now be "noticed" if you're wandering town around without a phone. Coming soon to whatever country you're in...

I read that article this morning, that was also my reaction. Do they not remember Snowden? Although the level of accessing "social media" posts, and internal government docs, for use in persecution of an individual is rising to new levels with The Cheato administration.

BirAdam 1y ago
Although, Cheatos are the wrong shade of orange. I feel like the Orange Immigration Man is something more like a Kraft Single.

esafak 1y ago

The problem is that people become used to the conditions they are living in, so the disaster is always in the future. People expect some sharp, intolerable transition.

SlightlyLeftPad 1y ago
Traveling abroad to asian countries it becomes immediately and shockingly clear how intolerable surveillance really can be. Between having your face and fingerprints scanned on a pirated windows xp pc to being fined heavily for going 51 kph in 50 zone it can be hard to imagine how much worse it can get from there, but it can.
- jdsnape 1y ago
  I’m interested in how strong your reaction is to those two examples. Could you explain why those are such terrible things?
  - FridayoLeary 1y ago
    Come on. It's blindingly obvious to anyone not used to these things why it's inherently bad. To people who live in a police state you eventually get used to such things. For example i really believe that traffic enforcement cameras are state oppression. They create more human suffering then they prevent. it's just that people are used to it so they don't protest.
    - jdsnape 1y ago
      I asked because it wasn’t blindingly obvious, and I genuinely want to understand. Taking the traffic enforcement then - we’re talking about a dangerous piece of machinery that you’re allowed to operate in a public place under certain conditions in order to reduce the risk to others. One of those conditions is speed. It seems blindingly obvious to me that if a society agrees those conditions it should also enforce them?
      - FridayoLeary 1y ago
        Yes but speed cameras quickly turn into a revenue source for greedy councils. It's hard to tell how much they actually care about speeding offences and doing what they think they can get away with. As a general rule these things start with sincere intentions but often devolve into cynical exploitation. So if you weigh the benefits of speed cameras against the suffering they cause i think you would find they aren't a good thing. Getting to your original question i think many people don't trust that their face and fingerprint scans will be used in a way that would be in the publics interest. Its more likely that the authorities would find a way to use that data against you.
        gregjor 1y ago
        How exactly do you weigh the “suffering” — I would call it inconvenience or annoyance — of traffic fines against bodily harm caused by dangerous drivers? A fine versus a hospital stay or worse?
        1y ago
- bitwize 1y ago
  Entering Japan there's a nice friendly line marked "Japanese" where everyone just passes in smoothly, and a grim dystopian line marked "Foreigner" at which your fingerprints and photo are taken before you're allowed entry. It's like humans vs. fookin' prawns in District 9. And this is Japan, one of the more liberal East Asian states. Japanese businesses often refuse foreigners outright, or, like famed cheap-goods retailer Don Quijote, have notices posted indicating they can demand you cough up your passport at any time, so have it ready before entering. At least the customs agents were friendly, in that Japanese way, even as they asked me probing questions like why I flew in from Helsinki on Finnair instead of over the Pacific on an American airline. Though they seemed content with my answer ("because it was cheaper").
  - alkh 1y ago
    To be fair, getting fingerprints and photo taken is a standard nowadays for many countries in the world, especially if you need to apply for a visa. My guess would be that this is a norm for the majority of people not from the first-world countries. I personally had to do that for Canada, Japan, and EU
    - bitwize 1y ago
      I flew through the EU on my way into Japan and didn't have to get printed. The bored Parisian customs guy didn't even stamp my passport properly... which caused a bit of trouble when I landed in Helsinki. But no one, not even the Finns, demanded my fingerprints. Of course, this was 2011, which was forever ago in national-security time.
      - gregjor 1y ago
        Finland along with most of the rest of western Europe will roll out biometric identification ( fingerprints and photos) as part of the delayed ETIAS program, scheduled for this year.
  - gregjor 1y ago
    You gave some exaggerations and misinterpretations. Every country has separate immigration lines for citizens and foreigners. Immigration officials have access to national databases but not those of other countries. Like the USA and most other countries Japan has biometric data associated with passports, but only has direct access to match that for Japanese passports. Perhaps you have never experienced the “dystopian” foreigner entry process in the USA or your own country. Don Quijote has no such signs and does not demand your passport to enter or shop. If you want to get the VAT refunded — a privilege many countries extend to foreign tourists — you can do that by showing you have a tourist visa. Essentially duty-free shopping extended out of the airport. The USA does not have a national VAT so no American store needs a passport to refund taxes. Japanese businesses do sometimes exclude foreigners, mainly because they don’t have multilingual staff, but also because they want to reserve some places for Japanese and not have tourists overrun every locals restaurant and bar. Customs and immigration officials everywhere ask probing questions to catch smugglers and criminals. Annoying perhaps but hardly a Japanese thing. Part of the job description. You have no right to enter a foreign country, the immigration officers get to determine that.
- gregjor 1y ago
  On the other hand, as an American citizen living in Asia after spending most of my life in the USA, I like not getting mugged, assaulted, or run over by a speeding car. I think you refer to China, or maybe Japan or Singapore. Not every country in Asia has advanced surveillance. The UK, Canada, and America have advanced the same technology but use it in other ways, which is why American police can’t make the subways or roads safe like the Japanese have, but monitor your social media posts and emails for signs of terrorism and political dissent.
- sometimes_all 1y ago
  > Between having your face and fingerprints scanned I'll assume you aren't familiar with a US visa consular appointment.
AlecSchueler 1y ago
> People expect some sharp, intolerable transition. Didn't this actually occur at the start of the year?

1oooqooq 1y ago

it was all downhill since the red scare

morkalork 1y ago
Ever since McCarthy where friends, neighbors and co-workers were pressed into narcing and ratting on each other.

jjav 1y ago

> It's been one for at least the last twenty years. Ubiquitous smartphones have racheted this up to a level before unimaginable. Imagine saying in 1990 that in 2025 everyone will be carrying a locator device which tracks their whereabouts 24/7 and who they associate with and message with.

Hizonner 1y ago
Apparently in China you'll now be "noticed" if you're wandering town around without a phone. Coming soon to whatever country you're in...