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>It’s best to understand that fascists see hypocrisy as a virtue. It’s how they signal that the things they are doing to people were never meant to be equally a

>It’s best to understand that fascists see hypocrisy as a virtue. It’s how they signal that the things they are doing to people were never meant to be equally applied. For my friends - everything, for my enemies - the law.

pinkmuffinere 1y ago
For my true friends, champagne! For my sham friends, true pain.
- kennyadam 1y ago
  Close, but the correct version has better wordplay: "Champagne for my real friends, real pain for my sham friends."
AlexandrB 1y ago
I used to love this pithy quote but reflecting on it more recently this doesn't seem like something limited to fascists or fascism. Indeed, this kind of thinking is used by those of any political leaning when ideology becomes more important than principles. An obvious example is the USSR.
- wyre 1y ago
  Red fascism is a term that has been used to equate Stalinism with fascism, so maybe the quote still has merit?
- consumer451 1y ago
  This is a great example of the horseshoe theory of politics [0], which I believe in very strongly. I made a separate post if anyone cares to discuss it. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44214040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44214040
  - ahf8Aithaex7Nai 1y ago
    It should be a trident theory.
    - consumer451 1y ago
      If you don't mind, could you expand on this a bit?
      - ahf8Aithaex7Nai 1y ago
        > I see it as the gateway to people realizing that the left/right 1D line, and even the political compass, are ridiculous. When this theory is used in discourse, it is always a matter of suggesting that the left fringe and the right fringe are equally to be rejected. Stalin and Hitler, communism and fascism, class struggle and racial theory, Das Kapital and Hitler's Mein Kampf, dictatorship of the proletariat and Nazi dictatorship: the righteous liberal democrat must keep his distance from both extremes in equal measure. The golden path lies in the balanced middle. I am tired of criticizing this nonsense. It is an ideological lie. The trident means that there is just as much ideology, corruption, political dysfunctionality and all kinds of drivers of suffering, misery and resentment in the supposed political center. But it is very well hidden because it wears a kind of ideological cloak: the horseshoe theory. So to respond to your sentence I quoted above: the horseshoe theory IS the political compass that should be ridiculed.
  - rendall 1y ago
    Horseshoe theory has always read like a Pythagorean epicycle to me, an attempt to redeem a broken model. For a reductive political model, I prefer the 2 dimensional Collectivist-Individualist, Authoritarian-Libertarian axes. No need to literally contort the outdated Left-Right spectrum. An added benefit is you get to avoid annoying semantic battles such as whether Nazis or Fascists are Right wing or Left wing. Plus you get to add other axes as needed. My favorite, perhaps relevant today, is principled vs. expedient: do we apply principles like this "Rights" stuff impartially, even to people with whom we disagree, or do we just git 'r done?
- danielheath 1y ago
  Authoritarianism is the umbrella term describing the behaviour of both fascist states and various others. AFAIK all fascist states have been authoritarian - but it’s a common outcome anytime the people running the government are replaced en masse.
  - palmfacehn 1y ago
    The tyranny of the majority is another, often overlooked form of authoritarianism.
    - WhyIsItAlwaysHN 1y ago
      Good point, and much harder to challenge. If the majority is against an authoritarian there's protests and sabotage of social structures. If the majority oppresses a fringe group, it's often socially encouraged
      - palmfacehn 1y ago
        For these reasons, I personally believe authoritarianism cannot be opposed without a solid foundation of individualism. The problem becomes that explaining ideological nuance is rarely politically expedient or even rhetorically effective. Appeals to collectivism are more easily digested by the masses.
    - EasyMark 1y ago
      that's kind of what the USA is going through right now but it's more aptly described as "tyranny of the plurality" because Trump didn't win either majority of of registered voters or majority of the actual vote.
      - palmfacehn 1y ago
        Regardless of tiresome partisan hyperbole, I don't regard the substance of this administration's actions as any more authoritarian the previous or the status quo. In the specific instances where state power has been expanded, I regard it as part of the general trend of expansion. The trend is more indicative of the overall incentives and structure of governance, rather than specific political actors. Similarly, partisan recriminations fit with the same pattern.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  Absolutely. See "the only moral abortion is my abortion". Republicans can play all sorts of games because their mistresses will always be able to get an abortion on the DL without consequence, while "single black mom? 25 to life for murder!"

pinkmuffinere 1y ago

For my true friends, champagne! For my sham friends, true pain.

kennyadam 1y ago
Close, but the correct version has better wordplay: "Champagne for my real friends, real pain for my sham friends."

AlexandrB 1y ago

I used to love this pithy quote but reflecting on it more recently this doesn't seem like something limited to fascists or fascism. Indeed, this kind of thinking is used by those of any political leaning when ideology becomes more important than principles. An obvious example is the USSR.

wyre 1y ago
Red fascism is a term that has been used to equate Stalinism with fascism, so maybe the quote still has merit?
consumer451 1y ago
This is a great example of the horseshoe theory of politics [0], which I believe in very strongly. I made a separate post if anyone cares to discuss it. [1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44214040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44214040
- ahf8Aithaex7Nai 1y ago
  It should be a trident theory.
  - consumer451 1y ago
    If you don't mind, could you expand on this a bit?
    - ahf8Aithaex7Nai 1y ago
      > I see it as the gateway to people realizing that the left/right 1D line, and even the political compass, are ridiculous. When this theory is used in discourse, it is always a matter of suggesting that the left fringe and the right fringe are equally to be rejected. Stalin and Hitler, communism and fascism, class struggle and racial theory, Das Kapital and Hitler's Mein Kampf, dictatorship of the proletariat and Nazi dictatorship: the righteous liberal democrat must keep his distance from both extremes in equal measure. The golden path lies in the balanced middle. I am tired of criticizing this nonsense. It is an ideological lie. The trident means that there is just as much ideology, corruption, political dysfunctionality and all kinds of drivers of suffering, misery and resentment in the supposed political center. But it is very well hidden because it wears a kind of ideological cloak: the horseshoe theory. So to respond to your sentence I quoted above: the horseshoe theory IS the political compass that should be ridiculed.
- rendall 1y ago
  Horseshoe theory has always read like a Pythagorean epicycle to me, an attempt to redeem a broken model. For a reductive political model, I prefer the 2 dimensional Collectivist-Individualist, Authoritarian-Libertarian axes. No need to literally contort the outdated Left-Right spectrum. An added benefit is you get to avoid annoying semantic battles such as whether Nazis or Fascists are Right wing or Left wing. Plus you get to add other axes as needed. My favorite, perhaps relevant today, is principled vs. expedient: do we apply principles like this "Rights" stuff impartially, even to people with whom we disagree, or do we just git 'r done?
danielheath 1y ago
Authoritarianism is the umbrella term describing the behaviour of both fascist states and various others. AFAIK all fascist states have been authoritarian - but it’s a common outcome anytime the people running the government are replaced en masse.
- palmfacehn 1y ago
  The tyranny of the majority is another, often overlooked form of authoritarianism.
  - WhyIsItAlwaysHN 1y ago
    Good point, and much harder to challenge. If the majority is against an authoritarian there's protests and sabotage of social structures. If the majority oppresses a fringe group, it's often socially encouraged
    - palmfacehn 1y ago
      For these reasons, I personally believe authoritarianism cannot be opposed without a solid foundation of individualism. The problem becomes that explaining ideological nuance is rarely politically expedient or even rhetorically effective. Appeals to collectivism are more easily digested by the masses.
  - EasyMark 1y ago
    that's kind of what the USA is going through right now but it's more aptly described as "tyranny of the plurality" because Trump didn't win either majority of of registered voters or majority of the actual vote.
    - palmfacehn 1y ago
      Regardless of tiresome partisan hyperbole, I don't regard the substance of this administration's actions as any more authoritarian the previous or the status quo. In the specific instances where state power has been expanded, I regard it as part of the general trend of expansion. The trend is more indicative of the overall incentives and structure of governance, rather than specific political actors. Similarly, partisan recriminations fit with the same pattern.
FireBeyond 1y ago
Absolutely. See "the only moral abortion is my abortion". Republicans can play all sorts of games because their mistresses will always be able to get an abortion on the DL without consequence, while "single black mom? 25 to life for murder!"