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Researchers develop ‘transparent paper’ as alternative to plastics
- 1970-01-01 1y agoThe bag is good, the cup is good, but the straw is a terrible idea.
- firtoz 1y agoWhy? Will it get soggy like the regular paper straws?
- aDyslecticCrow 1y agoIf it's as they describe... it should not. so a good straw replacement.
- 9rx 1y agoIf it is as described, won't it harm turtles in the same way plastic straws do? That is, after all, why paper straws became popular following that viral video that went around. Poor structural integrity was the desirable trait they offered.
- junon 1y agoThe "harming turtles" thing was wildly overstated, to start. Also, ideally not, because the turtles that were claimed to be affected are in the ocean, where the straws degraded in just a few months.
- 9rx 1y agoWhat do you mean it was widely overstated? It is held by the mainstream news as the driver of paper straw adoption. It is not like people gave up on plastics in general over concern for the environment, it was only straws specifically. Are you one of those "fake news" types?
- junon 1y agoI think you misread my comment. The worry that turtles were having widespread injuries due to plastic straws was overstated. It started with a viral video. There's no evidence that was anything other than a freak accident. That's not to say plastics are good, or that marine life aren't affected by them. Clearly they are. Straws are a small factor in that, and I was simply stating that a cellulose based straw that degrades in the ocean is not going to impact turtles, certainly not more than the few rare instances plastic straws harmed them.
- 9rx 1y agoThen you misunderstand the situation. People didn't start flocking to paper straws because they actually pose a widespread threat to turtles. It was only done so under feeling good about the idea of helping turtles avoid the hypothetical fate shown in said video. In order to achieve that goal in maintaining the idea of helping turtles, it is necessary for the straws to have poor structural integrity. Granted, I expect the novelty has already started to wear off. There seems to be growing movement towards returning to plastic straws. And fair enough. You can only worry about turtles for so long before the next viral video gives you something new to worry about. And for that reason, plastic straws may no longer need a replacement (from the irrational human emotion point of view).
- Brian_K_White 1y agoWhy? They say the physical properties are like polycarbonate: no problem there. They don't say how fast it degrades in ideal conditions but do say it takes 4 months in poor conditions, and that it requires microbes not merely water, or oxygen or other chemistry or uv etc, but microbes: sounds like it won't be touched at all in your soda even after a week. Where is the terrible part?
- constantcrying 1y agoIt doesn't have the same physical properties. Even the idea of that is ridiculous, one physical property the article mentions it its degradability. "Strength" is also a meaningless metric to compare, it just is not a material property.
- anigbrowl 1y agoThis doesn't make any sense and is not responsive to the points from GP.
- Brian_K_White 1y agoAgain, they claim the properties are similar to polycarbonate. The properties of polycarbonate are thoroughly understood, and are perfectly suitable for a drinking straw. So again, what do you base this judgement on exactly? Do you have a sample of the material and can claim they are lying and it's not actually like PC and that it somehow fails when used as a drinking straw? Does it taste bad? Did it steal your girlfriend? Like what?
- constantcrying 1y ago>Again, they claim the properties are similar to polycarbonate The claim in the article is "strength" which is not a material property at all. Just a very vague description. Besides that obviously they do not have the same properties, because the article literally says that it is being eaten by bacteria quite quickly in sea water.
- giantg2 1y agoThis is probably like the transparent windows made of wood - the chemicals to make it aren't any better than the ones used to make plastic.
- mjamesaustin 1y agoCan you share what knowledge you have of the materials and/or process that implies this is likely the case?
- aDyslecticCrow 1y agoThey briefly describe the process in the article, and very different from the "transparent wood" I think you are referring to. I'll try to summarise from my brief understanding. - Transparent wood takes wood, dissolves the lignin (natural wood glue-ish) with a solvent, and replaces it with epoxy under pressure. It's a pain to make, but is very cool and preserves the wood fibre structure. - This transparent paper involves dissolving very pure cellulose (long starch) and then allowing it to reconnect tightly (with heat) before drying. It appears to be composed primarily of cellulose at the end and exhibits plastic properties. I presume the chemicals change the cellulose properties to allow this. "lithium bromide-water" is (apparently, I was corrected) not very toxic and lilley recycled in the process. If this can be scaled and the solvent process can be done safely, then its very clever. It's effectively plastic but using a more "natural" carbon chain, which nature has had a few million extra years to figure out how to break down. They describe it as paper and compare it to polycarbonate... so my guess is that it is a bit brittle, and cannot nicely replace plastic wrap or plastic bags... but it has some nice properties to replace a group of plastics we don't have very good alternatives to. One open question I have is UV resistance. Most transparent plastics tend to become brittle over time... but I don't know my chemistry enough to know if cellulose has the same issue. Greenhouses would otherwise benefit from it (as they're often made from polycarbonate sheets rather than glass)
- kurthr 1y agoI don't know why it "Sounds toxic as s*t". It's a reactive salt. LD50 is ~1gram so don't swallow or get it in your eyes or nose. It seems comparable in hazard to commonly available cleaning compounds like ammonia and bleach. That doesn't make it safe, but it's not a crazy carcinogen or auto-immune risk, and it literally dissolves in water. It's present in all sea water ~0.1ppm so you can't escape it.
- kazinator 1y agoOld is new again? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celluloid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane
- aDyslecticCrow 1y agoSounds similar to cellophane. But the process to make it is very different. Maybe it has some new properties that cellophane doesn't.
- ihodes 1y ago"(…) They can be used to make containers because they are thicker than conventional cellulose-based materials. The new material is expected to replace plastics for this purpose, as plastics are a source of ocean pollution."
- 90s_dev 1y agoI genuinely wonder if the Romans actually had peak technology all things considered & balanced.
- astrospective 1y agoToo much lead.
- 90s_dev 1y agoIt actually wasn't poisonous given the circumstances.
- margalabargala 1y agoCould you elaborate? Just because it was less poisonous than it could have been, does not make it non-poisonous.
- 90s_dev 1y ago
- fitsumbelay 1y agohits all the marks for replacing plastic. curious how long it'll take before widespread adoption; my cynical assumption's that it'll be at least a decade. will be happy to be wrong ...
- mojo-ponderer 1y ago[dead]
- tonyhart7 1y agoeven if its viable, it would come down to cost
- pupppet 1y agoIt’s funny how we’ve all just become desensitized to the idea that some countries simply dump their garbage in the ocean and rather than work on that problem, we work on creating better garbage.
- lisper 1y agoEnvironmentally-sensitive garbage disposal is expensive. Not everyone can afford it.
- iszomer 1y agoIIRC, SK burns spent tires as a fuel source for their cement industry.
- hippari2 1y agoIt is easier to process a single type trash. Home trash is where burning get pretty expensive because people put all sort of stuffs in there. And I am sure the energy is net negative to. The main issue of trash has always been separation.
- iszomer 1y agoWhich also iirc Japan does very well. Sure, the power generated is connected to it's grid and it pales in comparison to their other forms of energy production but it is also a part of their waste management policy.
- petermcneeley 1y agohttps://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/visualized-ocean-plastic-waste-pollution-by-country/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/cp/visualized-ocean-plastic...
- phyzix5761 1y agoIts really hard to change people without using threats or force. Easier to change their environment.
- JBlue42 1y agoNot a surprise given how everything in Japan is wrapped in plastic. Loved everything about visiting the place that was far ahead of the US except for this.
- zdw 1y agoApparently the total mass of plastic used in wrapping the same volume of goods is lower in japan than in other countries (using more bags, less hard shell packaging). Video on this, as well as how much is used as incinerator fuel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU6WogV6UEg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU6WogV6UEg
- Tor3 1y agoIn Japan individual crackers are typically wrapped in plastic inside the package, possibly due to the high humidity, possibly for social reasons (or both). Gift packets of for example chocolate also always use individually packed pieces. In the grocery store, if you buy plastic-wrapped on-styrofoam fish or meat and some other foodstuff, the cashier will always put this in an additional plastic bag. Eggs are packed in plastic (in my home country that would be cardboard). And so on and so forth. We bring our own bags,typically, but there's just so much plastic..
- jona777than 1y agoOn a more humorous note, this ought to make for an interesting store checkout experience. “Would you like paper or… paper?”
- speedylight 1y agoWe need a new class of materials that have plastic like properties but don’t take thousands of years to degrade or are impossible to recycle.
- SubiculumCode 1y agoI think that degradation of plastic is the larger concern. Storage of garbage is generally an overstated concern, while microplastic pollution clearly show the threat of plastics that break into millions of tiny pieces.[1] Stable plastics that last pose so many fewer problems when it comes to pollutants. [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412022001702 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041202...
- aDyslecticCrow 1y agoWe need it to break down properly, or not at all.
- 1970-01-01 1y agoOnly inorganic materials will last forever. We can reuse metal and glass and ceramic forever but never a plastic.
- bastawhiz 1y agoIt would be incredible if they could make plastic that didn't break down. But given the history of plastics, I would have to be very convinced that whatever they do to it isn't making it terribly toxic in ways that we don't measure. I would rather ditch plastics for better materials than have to check that yet another new acronym isn't in my water bottle.
- 1970-01-01 1y agoIt's keeping it out of the air and water that we need to work on. If we properly trashed our plastic, it would not be floating in the ocean.
- stavros 1y ago
- ExMachina73 1y agoStill holding out for transparent aluminum.
- jarretc 1y agoSo like sapphire (Al2O3) :)
- burnt-resistor 1y agoScotty loves him some aluminium oxynitride.
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago“The paper sheets become transparent because they are packed tightly with nanometer-scale (one 1-billionth of a meter) fibers. The concentration of these fibers allows light to pass straight through the sheets without experiencing diffusion.” How do they orient them?
- fastball 1y agoTransparency isn't the reason we use so much plastic. We like plastic because it is lightweight and not biodegradable. We like it because it lasts thousands of years. Because if it lasts thousands of years it will do a good job of storing your food products. Or it will stick around in various components without needing to worry about rain and such. What we need to develop is something that doesn't degrade at all under most human living conditions, but does degrade rapidly if we expose it to some sort of not-common trigger, whether that is another chemical or temperature or pressure or whatever.
- mjevans 1y agoPlastic likes: 'waterproof' (fluid proof for many things) Difficult to shatter (drop safe-ish) Shows stuff off 'nicely' Priced inexpensively (damage to the commons is not factored in...)
- verelo 1y agoIt’s almost like we just gave up on making glass less breakable when we found plastic
- Henchman21 1y agoI'm haunted by a story I read once, about East German beer glasses that were unbreakable. They developed them because of a serious shortage of raw materials as I recall. I would be happy to buy two dozen and pass them on to my family when I die. But that's the problem, isn't it? The lack of sales. Just ask Pyrex, I guess?
- bnc319 1y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41173177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41173177
- Henchman21 1y ago
- Kiyo-Lynn 1y agoSounds pretty promising. If this kind of material can really replace single-use plastic, that would be amazing. We use way too much plastic every day. Sometimes just for a few minutes, but it takes decades to break down. If the alternative is actually safe and easy to use, I think people would be more willing to make the switch.
- Duskgmxx 1y ago[dead]
- KlausWinter 1y ago[dead]
- bosky101 1y agoKudos, about time, Exciting news.
- ekianjo 1y agoSince this comes from Japan before trying to convert people to use transparent paper that has half the carbon footprint of plastic, why not reducing the massive packaging waste in Japan where everything is packed into 10 layers of plastic for no good reason?
- oddmiral 1y agoIn recent news: Japanese scientists produce plastic which dissolves in seawater within 2 hours.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- smolder 1y agoPlastics and other oil-derivative, crucial materials should be the main use of crude oil and methane, not energy. Save the oil to make things that don't have an easy replacement. Replace oil burning with solar, wind, nuclear, etc., and use the underground reserve of hydrocarbons for noble causes like medecine, or for the type of investments that add to the net good for our species.
- burnt-resistor 1y agoPlastics can be made from pretty much any plant-derived oil. Heat some vegetable oil, and voila, you have essentially plastic gunk and toxic side-products. The root problem is we have corrupt governments around the world in the pockets of big oil who don't care about the survival of the species or the planet long term so long as they advance short-term profits and expanding demand for oil.
- smolder 1y agoTransparent paper is kind of an old idea. Whether it is commercially viable is the important question.
- junon 1y agoFrom TFA it says it's only about 3x as expensive as normal paper packaging, just needs a factory. Implies that at least some people believe it's viable.
- Huxley1 1y agoMy mom’s been helping out at a small local shop, and they’ve been trying to move away from plastic packaging. They tried compostable films and recycled paper, but either the cost was too high or the materials just didn’t hold up well. This transparent paper made from cellulose sounds really promising. If it can handle heat, looks good, and actually breaks down in the environment, that would be a big help for shops like theirs. Has anyone here worked with this kind of material? I’d love to hear how it performs in real use, especially with things like liquids or anything sensitive to moisture.
- wolfi1 1y agoI can't help it, sounds to me like cellophane. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellophane
- hdb385 1y ago[flagged]
- Ringz 1y agoIs it really biodegradable? Almost all varieties are not. They only fall apart in smaller plastic or need special heated environments. None of them will degrade if you simply throw them „into the woods“.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- hdb385 1y agoyes they turn to nothing very quickly. you can actually put them in your food compost. see, you're evidence of the ignorance
- Ringz 1y agoMaybe you should check your sources: *1. Limited Degradation Conditions* - Most biodegradable plastics only break down under specific conditions, such as high temperatures found in industrial composting facilities, which are not widely available[3][4][6]. - In landfills or the natural environment, they may persist for years and even release methane, a potent greenhouse gas[4]. *2. Contamination of Recycling Streams* - Biodegradable plastics can contaminate conventional plastic recycling, reducing the quality and durability of recycled products[1][7]. - They require separate collection and processing, adding complexity and cost to waste management[5][7]. *3. Microplastics and Environmental Harm* - Some types, especially oxo-degradable plastics, fragment into microplastics, which pollute ecosystems and can enter the food chain[1]. *4. Toxicity and Chemical Concerns* - Biodegradable and bioplastics often contain thousands of chemicals, some of which are toxic and comparable to those in traditional plastics[2][8]. - Cellulose and starch-based bioplastics have shown strong toxicity in laboratory studies[2]. *5. High Production Costs and Resource Use* - Production is generally more expensive than conventional plastics and may require significant agricultural resources, potentially competing with food production and increasing carbon emissions[3][2][7]. *6. Durability and Usability Issues* - Biodegradable plastics may not be as durable, limiting their application in some products[5]. - Some products have faced consumer complaints about performance, such as packaging noise or fragility[3]. *7. Greenwashing and Misleading Claims* - Marketing often exaggerates environmental benefits, leading to consumer confusion and a false sense of sustainability[1][6]. *8. Infrastructure and Collection Challenges* - Lack of proper infrastructure means many biodegradable plastics end up in landfills or are incinerated rather than composted[4][7]. In summary, biodegradable plastics face significant challenges regarding waste management, environmental impact, toxicity, and practicality, making them far from a perfect solution to plastic pollution[1][2][3]. Quellen [1] Biodegradable Plastic Problems | BioPak Australia https://www.biopak.com/au/resources/biodegradable-plastic-problems https://www.biopak.com/au/resources/biodegradable-plastic-pr... [2] The False Promise Of Bioplastics and Compostable Plastics https://www.beyondplastics.org/fact-sheets/bad-news-about-bioplastics https://www.beyondplastics.org/fact-sheets/bad-news-about-bi... [3] Is Biodegradable Plastic Good for the Environment? Exploring its ... https://www.global.dnp/biz/column/detail/20173971_4117.html https://www.global.dnp/biz/column/detail/20173971_4117.html [4] Why Bioplastics Will Not Solve the World's Plastics Problem https://e360.yale.edu/features/why-bioplastics-will-not-solve-the-worlds-plastics-problem https://e360.yale.edu/features/why-bioplastics-will-not-solv... [5] Concept to Compost: Challenges of Biodegradable Plastics R&D https://grantica.io/challenges-of-biodegradable-plastics-research-and-development/ https://grantica.io/challenges-of-biodegradable-plastics-res... [6] The Problem with Bioplastics - The Great Bubble Barrier® https://thegreatbubblebarrier.com/the-problem-with-bioplastics/ https://thegreatbubblebarrier.com/the-problem-with-bioplasti... [7] The problem with bio-plastic - Plastic Free Communities https://plasticfree.org.uk/2024/01/31/the-problem-with-bio-plastic/ https://plasticfree.org.uk/2024/01/31/the-problem-with-bio-p... [8] Biodegradable plastics may bring degradation and toxicity ... https://foodpackagingforum.org/news/biodegradable-plastics-may-bring-degradation-and-toxicity-challenges-say-scientists https://foodpackagingforum.org/news/biodegradable-plastics-m...
- Leo-thorne 1y agoMy mom’s been helping out at a small local shop, and they’ve been trying to move away from plastic packaging. They tried compostable films and recycled paper, but either the cost was too high or the materials just didn’t hold up well. This transparent paper made from cellulose sounds really promising. If it can handle heat, looks good, and actually breaks down in the environment, that would be a big help for shops like theirs. Has anyone here worked with this kind of material? I’d love to hear how it performs in real use, especially with things like liquids or anything sensitive to moisture.
- hereme888 1y agoEven if it doesn't replace all use-cases for plastics, it seems like it can replace lots of throw-away plastic products. That alone would be good progress. I don't mind cellulose shopping bags, straws, throwaway cups, plates, utensils, etc.
- 7speter 1y agoWow, I was just wondering about this yesterday! I had read about how some researchers made a sort of glass out of wood and wondered if they could make resilient bottles for beverages out of a sort of maybe polymerized paper.
- constantcrying 1y agoI don't remember how often I have seen basically this exact same story. "Material X is going to replace plastics" is not a new story. Every time they have failed to replace plastics, because it is extremely hard to match all of the great qualities of the common plastic varieties. Since plastics are so common people underestimate what a great materials they really are.
- yoko888 1y ago[dead]
- leereeves 1y agoI'm concerned about microplastics too, but I think on the whole plastics have been good for health. Any harm microplastics may cause must be rather small if it hasn't been identified yet, and easily outweighed by the benefits of reducing spoilage and pathogen growth.
- amanaplanacanal 1y agoI somewhat agree with you. Unfortunately if it does turn out that we need to clean up the plastic pollution someday (because of longer term harms), we're pretty much fucked.
- NotAnOtter 1y agoLow carbon emissions, but what about cost? This product seems to solve for a lot of things that have nothing to do with why we use plastic. Plastic is everywhere because it is durable & cheap, that's about it got 80% of applications. This misses the mark even more for the other 20% that cares about things like caustic resistance. An expensive non-durable product will never replace it. It's nonsensical to say it's as durable as plastic, I assume that's referring to tensile strength, which is not the main property industry cares about. They want a material that will keep their product protected for months or years, it being able to lift a similar amount of weight is irrelevant when you're wrapping bread.
- Beijinger 1y agoAre plastics killing us? - by Ugo Bardi - The Seneca Effect https://senecaeffect.substack.com/p/are-plastics-killing-us https://senecaeffect.substack.com/p/are-plastics-killing-us
- curtisszmania 1y ago[dead]
- alexpotato 1y agoUp next: transparent aluminum.
- exabrial 1y agoWaxxed paper?
- bzmrgonz 1y agoIf anyone has tried drinking from the straw, can you confirm there's no paper taste? I can't stand paper straws for this reason, it messes with my nerves like the scratching/screeching of a blackboard.