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No, it's everyone's. Herd immunity can only be achieved if a sufficiently large part of the population is vaccinated. Also, and I know basic empathy is a foreig

No, it's everyone's. Herd immunity can only be achieved if a sufficiently large part of the population is vaccinated. Also, and I know basic empathy is a foreign concept nowadays, but what if I wished for my fellow to not die of a preventable disease because a grifter sold them on an insane idea?

account42 1y ago
[flagged]
- shakna 1y ago
  ... Most vaccines do not completely prevent you from contracting a virus. They reduce the liklihood, and thus reduce the footprint. Heck, the concept of herd immunity is about protecting individuals who cannot be vaccinated at all. By reducing a virus' footprint.
  - zanfr 1y ago
    there is no long term herd immunity with coronaviruses; which is why they are often use in disaster prevention scenarios... what you call "herd immunity" is merely letting people die...
    - shakna 1y ago
      Herd immunity, for some definitions of a debated term, is absolutely achievable - and lasting. [0] > Technically, then, a population can reach herd immunity even with low levels of the pathogen still circulating, which means it hasn't necessarily been eradicated for good. The point, ultimately, is that herd immunity may not be the right shorthand to refer to the end of the pandemic. It’s been bandied about incorrectly, certainly imprecisely, Fine says. “I think people often haven’t a clue what they’re saying.” [0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8166024/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8166024/
- ekianjo 1y ago
  Even Pfizer recognized they never produced any data to support that in their trials. So the government was lying all along.
- teamonkey 1y ago
  Of course vaccines don’t prevent you from catching the virus, that is not how they work. They train your immune system so it’s better at fighting the virus when it enters your body. This reduces the chances of your immune system being overwhelmed by the virus, reduces your recovery time, reduces your symptoms, and therefore reduces the chances of you spreading it to other people.
redeeman 1y ago
[flagged]
saint_yossarian 1y ago
> Herd immunity can only be achieved if a sufficiently large part of the population is vaccinated. ...or getting infected, of course.
- shakna 1y ago
  Unfortunately, thus far, Covid19 has been through too many rapid changes for natural immunity to be effective. [0] The earlier forms allowed for it, but the evolution of the virus has outstripped most natural defences. [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)02465-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
  - ekianjo 1y ago
    But somehow the vaccines catch up on the strains before they come out?
    - shakna 1y ago
      They attack different things in the virus. Often multiple things at once. Which really should not be surprising.
      - Izkata 1y ago
        You got it backwards: the vaccines specifically targeted only the spike protein, while natural infection created different antibodies against all parts of the virus.
        shakna 1y ago
        Novavax COVID-19 vaccine never targeted specifically the spike protein, and instead focused on boosting the creation of various different antibodies. It is also the least effective. The current breed of mRNA vaccines targets the spike protein, and the TRIM21 gene. Some of them also attack the S protein directly. All of them work to boost various antibodies. The "targets" are in addition. By targeting the spike protein, the attack hits the RNA of the virus, not just the protein. The entire cellular structure of the virus breaks down. The same with TRIM21 targets. The bodies natural defences never targeted the spike protein, and instead focuses on the N-layer, not "all parts of the virus". These natural defences rarely manage to cause the viral cell to decay, they tend to work by slowing reproduction instead.
brigandish 1y ago
Herd immunity is not a direct goal of vaccination, protection of the individual being vaccinated is. If someone needs protection, then they should get vaccinated!
- ekianjo 1y ago
  Then why did we ask small kids to be vaccinated for COVID when they had no serious risk of anything? Rhetorical question, of course.
  - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
    > Then why did we ask small kids to be vaccinated for COVID when they had no serious risk of anything? Think of the children ... :-)
  - protonbob 1y ago
    Even more, why did we REQUIRE them to be vaccinated for COVID.
  - Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
    I am not sure about America but in India, I was a child during covid, 7th grade - 8th grade and i didn't have a vaccine but my school students just one grade above us were called in school and they were asked for vaccine. Though, to be fair, my whole family caught a "virus" during 2nd phase except my father but we didn't go to hospital and just bed rest for 2-3 days. My family really were skeptical of vaccine but personally I don't mind vaccines and would prefer it.
  - brigandish 1y ago
    On the contrary, for the overwhelming majority of children you're absolutely right, they didn't have serious risk from COVID-19, which makes your question a good one, not a rhetorical one. Regardless, herd immunity was not a serious possibility at any point (given the high Rº and lack of a vaccine that could prevent transmission), which, considering this was known very early on makes your question, again, a good one not a rhetorical one, despite your intent. Finally, regardless of herd immunity, at risk individuals would still require vaccination, which makes the herd immunity as a goal, again, irrelevant, which is where I started. It's a nice by-product.
zanfr 1y ago
there is no long term herd immunity with coronaviruses; which is why they are often use in disaster prevention scenarios... what you call "herd immunity" is merely letting people die and then go "we have herd immunity" as part of your survivor bias only solution that works most of the time, regardless of pathogen (including covid): air filtration (respirators and/or whole room)
- xorcist 1y ago
  There absolutely is. You just think the word immunity means something else. After vaccination or a passed infection the immune response is there. When a sufficient immune resopnse from a large enough portion if the population is enough to lower the critical cases below some threshold, we call that type of immunity herd immunity. It's not binary, but a useful concept nonetheless, and one that some people devote their professional lives to. It can be observed every flu season.

account42 1y ago

[flagged]

shakna 1y ago
... Most vaccines do not completely prevent you from contracting a virus. They reduce the liklihood, and thus reduce the footprint. Heck, the concept of herd immunity is about protecting individuals who cannot be vaccinated at all. By reducing a virus' footprint.
- zanfr 1y ago
  there is no long term herd immunity with coronaviruses; which is why they are often use in disaster prevention scenarios... what you call "herd immunity" is merely letting people die...
  - shakna 1y ago
    Herd immunity, for some definitions of a debated term, is absolutely achievable - and lasting. [0] > Technically, then, a population can reach herd immunity even with low levels of the pathogen still circulating, which means it hasn't necessarily been eradicated for good. The point, ultimately, is that herd immunity may not be the right shorthand to refer to the end of the pandemic. It’s been bandied about incorrectly, certainly imprecisely, Fine says. “I think people often haven’t a clue what they’re saying.” [0] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8166024/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8166024/
ekianjo 1y ago
Even Pfizer recognized they never produced any data to support that in their trials. So the government was lying all along.
teamonkey 1y ago
Of course vaccines don’t prevent you from catching the virus, that is not how they work. They train your immune system so it’s better at fighting the virus when it enters your body. This reduces the chances of your immune system being overwhelmed by the virus, reduces your recovery time, reduces your symptoms, and therefore reduces the chances of you spreading it to other people.

redeeman 1y ago

[flagged]

saint_yossarian 1y ago

> Herd immunity can only be achieved if a sufficiently large part of the population is vaccinated. ...or getting infected, of course.

shakna 1y ago
Unfortunately, thus far, Covid19 has been through too many rapid changes for natural immunity to be effective. [0] The earlier forms allowed for it, but the evolution of the virus has outstripped most natural defences. [0] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(22)02465-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...
- ekianjo 1y ago
  But somehow the vaccines catch up on the strains before they come out?
  - shakna 1y ago
    They attack different things in the virus. Often multiple things at once. Which really should not be surprising.
    - Izkata 1y ago
      You got it backwards: the vaccines specifically targeted only the spike protein, while natural infection created different antibodies against all parts of the virus.
      - shakna 1y ago
        Novavax COVID-19 vaccine never targeted specifically the spike protein, and instead focused on boosting the creation of various different antibodies. It is also the least effective. The current breed of mRNA vaccines targets the spike protein, and the TRIM21 gene. Some of them also attack the S protein directly. All of them work to boost various antibodies. The "targets" are in addition. By targeting the spike protein, the attack hits the RNA of the virus, not just the protein. The entire cellular structure of the virus breaks down. The same with TRIM21 targets. The bodies natural defences never targeted the spike protein, and instead focuses on the N-layer, not "all parts of the virus". These natural defences rarely manage to cause the viral cell to decay, they tend to work by slowing reproduction instead.

brigandish 1y ago

Herd immunity is not a direct goal of vaccination, protection of the individual being vaccinated is. If someone needs protection, then they should get vaccinated!

ekianjo 1y ago
Then why did we ask small kids to be vaccinated for COVID when they had no serious risk of anything? Rhetorical question, of course.
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  > Then why did we ask small kids to be vaccinated for COVID when they had no serious risk of anything? Think of the children ... :-)
- protonbob 1y ago
  Even more, why did we REQUIRE them to be vaccinated for COVID.
- Imustaskforhelp 1y ago
  I am not sure about America but in India, I was a child during covid, 7th grade - 8th grade and i didn't have a vaccine but my school students just one grade above us were called in school and they were asked for vaccine. Though, to be fair, my whole family caught a "virus" during 2nd phase except my father but we didn't go to hospital and just bed rest for 2-3 days. My family really were skeptical of vaccine but personally I don't mind vaccines and would prefer it.
- brigandish 1y ago
  On the contrary, for the overwhelming majority of children you're absolutely right, they didn't have serious risk from COVID-19, which makes your question a good one, not a rhetorical one. Regardless, herd immunity was not a serious possibility at any point (given the high Rº and lack of a vaccine that could prevent transmission), which, considering this was known very early on makes your question, again, a good one not a rhetorical one, despite your intent. Finally, regardless of herd immunity, at risk individuals would still require vaccination, which makes the herd immunity as a goal, again, irrelevant, which is where I started. It's a nice by-product.

zanfr 1y ago

there is no long term herd immunity with coronaviruses; which is why they are often use in disaster prevention scenarios... what you call "herd immunity" is merely letting people die and then go "we have herd immunity" as part of your survivor bias only solution that works most of the time, regardless of pathogen (including covid): air filtration (respirators and/or whole room)

xorcist 1y ago
There absolutely is. You just think the word immunity means something else. After vaccination or a passed infection the immune response is there. When a sufficient immune resopnse from a large enough portion if the population is enough to lower the critical cases below some threshold, we call that type of immunity herd immunity. It's not binary, but a useful concept nonetheless, and one that some people devote their professional lives to. It can be observed every flu season.