3 ms·

Isn't that the whole point of levels 2 and 3? Fine print applied to the marketed operating modes of heavy equipment. Surprise, you were supposed to be driving!

michaelmrose 1y ago
People on average can't effectively pretend to drive and switch to actually driving very effectively
Dylan16807 1y ago
"Surprise, you were supposed to be driving" is a level 2 problem. Level 2 requires inhuman levels of constant vigilance. Level 3 requires you to be awake and able to drive, and you will get several seconds of warning to switch from watching TV to looking at the road.
- mindslight 1y ago
  I always forget the levels, and I couldn't tell from a quick reading how much time L3 gave you. So sure, "several seconds" isn't deep in "surprise, you should have been driving" territory, but it's still on the order of a developing situation which a computer could get into and then balk and demand the human get themselves out of. That amount of time is also nowhere near enough for a human to switch tasks like that. I would say it should be at least a minute or two, and even that is pushing it with how people are bound to use the system (spacing out while watching a TV show, etc).
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    Are you suggesting it takes people a minute or two to start driving and get up to a basic level of safety? How does that even work? There's no way sitting still in a parking lot of driveway counts as getting into the groove.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      Yes. A "basic level" of safety doesn't suffice when you could be expected to take over a car already going 75mph on the highway. Let's say you were parked, taking a nap in the drivers set - when you woke up, would you immediately start driving or would you wait a minute to get your bearings? How about at a highway rest stop? It feels like trying to push back on that by asserting "the driver is supposed to always be alert and ready to be attentive!" is another bout of fanciful fiction like L2. Being outright asleep would seem to be derelict, but I can imagine many fuzzy mental middle grounds, especially in a droning car. (Somewhat related, if I haven't driven in a month I would say it takes me tens of minutes (maybe 20?) to get back up to the usual groove. Obviously the only way to do it is to do it, but I drive much differently until then)
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        > Let's say you were parked, taking a nap in the drivers set - when you woke up, would you immediately start driving or would you wait a minute to get your bearings? It would take me a minute to wake up. Napping is one of the few things you can't do with level 3. > How about at a highway rest stop? Wait, doesn't this go against your argument? Someone at a rest stop can go from "not driving at all" to "full speed down the highway and merging" in a handful of seconds. And it works fine. > It feels like trying to push back on that by asserting "the driver is supposed to always be alert and ready to be attentive!" is another bout of fanciful fiction like L2. Depends on what "alert" means. I can be in a general readiness state, with no particular requirements on my focus, for hours on end. > Being outright asleep would seem to be derelict, but I can imagine many fuzzy mental middle grounds, especially in a droning car. "The boring droning car made me zone out" is something that can happen while you're driving. A TV show could actually reduce the risk of falling half asleep. > if I haven't driven in a month I would say it takes me tens of minutes (maybe 20?) to get back up to the usual groove. Obviously the only way to do it is to do it, but I drive much differently until then How much differently? Also an autonomous car asking for takeover is probably driving super cautiously too.
- vel0city 1y ago
  I've actually driven many thousands of miles with level 2 ADAS. There is no "not paying attention" in the system I'm using. If you even spend a few seconds too much gazing out the sides the system will beep at you and eventually pull over. If I take a few too many sips from my cup it'll beep at me and eventually pull over. I have to actively be shifting my gaze around out of the front, constantly being attentive to the cars to keep it in level 2. It's really not inhuman levels of constant vigilance, not anymore than actually driving the car regularly. I just don't have to actively be keeping the pedals just right to maintain the following distance myself and I don't have to constantly fight the wheel.

michaelmrose 1y ago

People on average can't effectively pretend to drive and switch to actually driving very effectively

Dylan16807 1y ago

"Surprise, you were supposed to be driving" is a level 2 problem. Level 2 requires inhuman levels of constant vigilance. Level 3 requires you to be awake and able to drive, and you will get several seconds of warning to switch from watching TV to looking at the road.

mindslight 1y ago
I always forget the levels, and I couldn't tell from a quick reading how much time L3 gave you. So sure, "several seconds" isn't deep in "surprise, you should have been driving" territory, but it's still on the order of a developing situation which a computer could get into and then balk and demand the human get themselves out of. That amount of time is also nowhere near enough for a human to switch tasks like that. I would say it should be at least a minute or two, and even that is pushing it with how people are bound to use the system (spacing out while watching a TV show, etc).
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  Are you suggesting it takes people a minute or two to start driving and get up to a basic level of safety? How does that even work? There's no way sitting still in a parking lot of driveway counts as getting into the groove.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    Yes. A "basic level" of safety doesn't suffice when you could be expected to take over a car already going 75mph on the highway. Let's say you were parked, taking a nap in the drivers set - when you woke up, would you immediately start driving or would you wait a minute to get your bearings? How about at a highway rest stop? It feels like trying to push back on that by asserting "the driver is supposed to always be alert and ready to be attentive!" is another bout of fanciful fiction like L2. Being outright asleep would seem to be derelict, but I can imagine many fuzzy mental middle grounds, especially in a droning car. (Somewhat related, if I haven't driven in a month I would say it takes me tens of minutes (maybe 20?) to get back up to the usual groove. Obviously the only way to do it is to do it, but I drive much differently until then)
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      > Let's say you were parked, taking a nap in the drivers set - when you woke up, would you immediately start driving or would you wait a minute to get your bearings? It would take me a minute to wake up. Napping is one of the few things you can't do with level 3. > How about at a highway rest stop? Wait, doesn't this go against your argument? Someone at a rest stop can go from "not driving at all" to "full speed down the highway and merging" in a handful of seconds. And it works fine. > It feels like trying to push back on that by asserting "the driver is supposed to always be alert and ready to be attentive!" is another bout of fanciful fiction like L2. Depends on what "alert" means. I can be in a general readiness state, with no particular requirements on my focus, for hours on end. > Being outright asleep would seem to be derelict, but I can imagine many fuzzy mental middle grounds, especially in a droning car. "The boring droning car made me zone out" is something that can happen while you're driving. A TV show could actually reduce the risk of falling half asleep. > if I haven't driven in a month I would say it takes me tens of minutes (maybe 20?) to get back up to the usual groove. Obviously the only way to do it is to do it, but I drive much differently until then How much differently? Also an autonomous car asking for takeover is probably driving super cautiously too.
vel0city 1y ago
I've actually driven many thousands of miles with level 2 ADAS. There is no "not paying attention" in the system I'm using. If you even spend a few seconds too much gazing out the sides the system will beep at you and eventually pull over. If I take a few too many sips from my cup it'll beep at me and eventually pull over. I have to actively be shifting my gaze around out of the front, constantly being attentive to the cars to keep it in level 2. It's really not inhuman levels of constant vigilance, not anymore than actually driving the car regularly. I just don't have to actively be keeping the pedals just right to maintain the following distance myself and I don't have to constantly fight the wheel.