4 ms·

Watch out for Tesla automobiles automatically turning off FSD just before impact so they can say that FSD was not in use at the time of impact. I’ve heard rumo

Watch out for Tesla automobiles automatically turning off FSD just before impact so they can say that FSD was not in use at the time of impact. I’ve heard rumors of that happening.

mindslight 1y ago
Isn't that the whole point of levels 2 and 3? Fine print applied to the marketed operating modes of heavy equipment. Surprise, you were supposed to be driving!
- michaelmrose 1y ago
  People on average can't effectively pretend to drive and switch to actually driving very effectively
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  "Surprise, you were supposed to be driving" is a level 2 problem. Level 2 requires inhuman levels of constant vigilance. Level 3 requires you to be awake and able to drive, and you will get several seconds of warning to switch from watching TV to looking at the road.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    I always forget the levels, and I couldn't tell from a quick reading how much time L3 gave you. So sure, "several seconds" isn't deep in "surprise, you should have been driving" territory, but it's still on the order of a developing situation which a computer could get into and then balk and demand the human get themselves out of. That amount of time is also nowhere near enough for a human to switch tasks like that. I would say it should be at least a minute or two, and even that is pushing it with how people are bound to use the system (spacing out while watching a TV show, etc).
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      Are you suggesting it takes people a minute or two to start driving and get up to a basic level of safety? How does that even work? There's no way sitting still in a parking lot of driveway counts as getting into the groove.
      - mindslight 1y ago
        Yes. A "basic level" of safety doesn't suffice when you could be expected to take over a car already going 75mph on the highway. Let's say you were parked, taking a nap in the drivers set - when you woke up, would you immediately start driving or would you wait a minute to get your bearings? How about at a highway rest stop? It feels like trying to push back on that by asserting "the driver is supposed to always be alert and ready to be attentive!" is another bout of fanciful fiction like L2. Being outright asleep would seem to be derelict, but I can imagine many fuzzy mental middle grounds, especially in a droning car. (Somewhat related, if I haven't driven in a month I would say it takes me tens of minutes (maybe 20?) to get back up to the usual groove. Obviously the only way to do it is to do it, but I drive much differently until then)
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        > Let's say you were parked, taking a nap in the drivers set - when you woke up, would you immediately start driving or would you wait a minute to get your bearings? It would take me a minute to wake up. Napping is one of the few things you can't do with level 3. > How about at a highway rest stop? Wait, doesn't this go against your argument? Someone at a rest stop can go from "not driving at all" to "full speed down the highway and merging" in a handful of seconds. And it works fine. > It feels like trying to push back on that by asserting "the driver is supposed to always be alert and ready to be attentive!" is another bout of fanciful fiction like L2. Depends on what "alert" means. I can be in a general readiness state, with no particular requirements on my focus, for hours on end. > Being outright asleep would seem to be derelict, but I can imagine many fuzzy mental middle grounds, especially in a droning car. "The boring droning car made me zone out" is something that can happen while you're driving. A TV show could actually reduce the risk of falling half asleep. > if I haven't driven in a month I would say it takes me tens of minutes (maybe 20?) to get back up to the usual groove. Obviously the only way to do it is to do it, but I drive much differently until then How much differently? Also an autonomous car asking for takeover is probably driving super cautiously too.
  - vel0city 1y ago
    I've actually driven many thousands of miles with level 2 ADAS. There is no "not paying attention" in the system I'm using. If you even spend a few seconds too much gazing out the sides the system will beep at you and eventually pull over. If I take a few too many sips from my cup it'll beep at me and eventually pull over. I have to actively be shifting my gaze around out of the front, constantly being attentive to the cars to keep it in level 2. It's really not inhuman levels of constant vigilance, not anymore than actually driving the car regularly. I just don't have to actively be keeping the pedals just right to maintain the following distance myself and I don't have to constantly fight the wheel.
LeoPanthera 1y ago
I hate Tesla as much as the next sane man, but this rumor is just a rumor. Tesla counts FSD (and Autopilot) as being "in use" during an accident if it was enabled at any time in the 10 seconds before the accident.
- naikrovek 1y ago
  Do they? Given that Tesla can make those logs say anything they want, I would like that code reviewed by a 3rd party. If we're going to allow companies to write code in which human safety is in danger if that code misbehaves, that code should be auditable by a 3rd party, and those audits should regularly happen. Code which affects the safety of humans should be reviewed with AT LEAST as much rigor as code for slot machines.
  - bell-cot 1y ago
    While Tesla could manipulate their logs, serious car crashes frequently result in lawsuits (in the US). The insurance industry and the surrounding specialties - liability attorneys, engineering consulting firms - would very quickly notice a pattern of "driver says 'FSD', Tesla says 'Not FSD'".
    - genewitch 1y ago
      Why wouldn't every driver with no compunctions about lying^, knowing that tesla has autonomous features, say that "it was on, then it shut off with no time to react!" At some point you have to go off the logs, at which point the code, i agree, should be audited (sibling or a parent in this thread mentioned.) It's dueling disagreements otherwise. ^ reading anecdotes about accident scenes, someone if not everyone is always lying about what happened.
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  Tesla had to be "instructed" by the NHTSA to use this criteria.

Watch out for Tesla automobiles automatically turning off FSD just before impact so they can say that FSD was not in use at the time of impact. I’ve heard rumors of that happening.

mindslight 1y ago

Isn't that the whole point of levels 2 and 3? Fine print applied to the marketed operating modes of heavy equipment. Surprise, you were supposed to be driving!

michaelmrose 1y ago
People on average can't effectively pretend to drive and switch to actually driving very effectively
Dylan16807 1y ago
"Surprise, you were supposed to be driving" is a level 2 problem. Level 2 requires inhuman levels of constant vigilance. Level 3 requires you to be awake and able to drive, and you will get several seconds of warning to switch from watching TV to looking at the road.
- mindslight 1y ago
  I always forget the levels, and I couldn't tell from a quick reading how much time L3 gave you. So sure, "several seconds" isn't deep in "surprise, you should have been driving" territory, but it's still on the order of a developing situation which a computer could get into and then balk and demand the human get themselves out of. That amount of time is also nowhere near enough for a human to switch tasks like that. I would say it should be at least a minute or two, and even that is pushing it with how people are bound to use the system (spacing out while watching a TV show, etc).
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    Are you suggesting it takes people a minute or two to start driving and get up to a basic level of safety? How does that even work? There's no way sitting still in a parking lot of driveway counts as getting into the groove.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      Yes. A "basic level" of safety doesn't suffice when you could be expected to take over a car already going 75mph on the highway. Let's say you were parked, taking a nap in the drivers set - when you woke up, would you immediately start driving or would you wait a minute to get your bearings? How about at a highway rest stop? It feels like trying to push back on that by asserting "the driver is supposed to always be alert and ready to be attentive!" is another bout of fanciful fiction like L2. Being outright asleep would seem to be derelict, but I can imagine many fuzzy mental middle grounds, especially in a droning car. (Somewhat related, if I haven't driven in a month I would say it takes me tens of minutes (maybe 20?) to get back up to the usual groove. Obviously the only way to do it is to do it, but I drive much differently until then)
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        > Let's say you were parked, taking a nap in the drivers set - when you woke up, would you immediately start driving or would you wait a minute to get your bearings? It would take me a minute to wake up. Napping is one of the few things you can't do with level 3. > How about at a highway rest stop? Wait, doesn't this go against your argument? Someone at a rest stop can go from "not driving at all" to "full speed down the highway and merging" in a handful of seconds. And it works fine. > It feels like trying to push back on that by asserting "the driver is supposed to always be alert and ready to be attentive!" is another bout of fanciful fiction like L2. Depends on what "alert" means. I can be in a general readiness state, with no particular requirements on my focus, for hours on end. > Being outright asleep would seem to be derelict, but I can imagine many fuzzy mental middle grounds, especially in a droning car. "The boring droning car made me zone out" is something that can happen while you're driving. A TV show could actually reduce the risk of falling half asleep. > if I haven't driven in a month I would say it takes me tens of minutes (maybe 20?) to get back up to the usual groove. Obviously the only way to do it is to do it, but I drive much differently until then How much differently? Also an autonomous car asking for takeover is probably driving super cautiously too.
- vel0city 1y ago
  I've actually driven many thousands of miles with level 2 ADAS. There is no "not paying attention" in the system I'm using. If you even spend a few seconds too much gazing out the sides the system will beep at you and eventually pull over. If I take a few too many sips from my cup it'll beep at me and eventually pull over. I have to actively be shifting my gaze around out of the front, constantly being attentive to the cars to keep it in level 2. It's really not inhuman levels of constant vigilance, not anymore than actually driving the car regularly. I just don't have to actively be keeping the pedals just right to maintain the following distance myself and I don't have to constantly fight the wheel.

LeoPanthera 1y ago

I hate Tesla as much as the next sane man, but this rumor is just a rumor. Tesla counts FSD (and Autopilot) as being "in use" during an accident if it was enabled at any time in the 10 seconds before the accident.

naikrovek 1y ago
Do they? Given that Tesla can make those logs say anything they want, I would like that code reviewed by a 3rd party. If we're going to allow companies to write code in which human safety is in danger if that code misbehaves, that code should be auditable by a 3rd party, and those audits should regularly happen. Code which affects the safety of humans should be reviewed with AT LEAST as much rigor as code for slot machines.
- bell-cot 1y ago
  While Tesla could manipulate their logs, serious car crashes frequently result in lawsuits (in the US). The insurance industry and the surrounding specialties - liability attorneys, engineering consulting firms - would very quickly notice a pattern of "driver says 'FSD', Tesla says 'Not FSD'".
  - genewitch 1y ago
    Why wouldn't every driver with no compunctions about lying^, knowing that tesla has autonomous features, say that "it was on, then it shut off with no time to react!" At some point you have to go off the logs, at which point the code, i agree, should be audited (sibling or a parent in this thread mentioned.) It's dueling disagreements otherwise. ^ reading anecdotes about accident scenes, someone if not everyone is always lying about what happened.
FireBeyond 1y ago
Tesla had to be "instructed" by the NHTSA to use this criteria.