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Magnus Carlsen might walk away from classical chess
- JodieBenitez 1y agoTry chessboxing maybe :-P
- d_silin 1y agoBlitz chess is still fun.
- bsder 1y agoThe grind at the top is still a grind--in fact, it is the worst grind. To top that off, Magnus is in his mid-30s now. Anyone doing anything at the level of "Elite in the World" is putting in an amount of effort that borders on mania that would be classified as mental illness.
- eterm 1y agoIt's hard for some of the very best when they're no longer at their peak. Don't get me wrong, Magnus is still world #1 for a reason, but he used to be at a level where no-one could even scratch him. Now he has to fight much harder for victories, and he's not enjoying that. It's hard to determine how much is down to that factor, how much is how he feels over not being world champion anymore, and how much is a financial incentive in attempted break aways from FIDE to promote "freestyle chess" ( random chess ).
- Mistletoe 1y agoLebron has a saying- "Father Time is undefeated." https://www.chess.com/blog/LionChessLtd/age-vs-elo---your-battle-against-time https://www.chess.com/blog/LionChessLtd/age-vs-elo---your-ba... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2773161823000034#fig4 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S277316182... Magnus is 34, he's just going to have to deal with it like every exceptional person has.
- Etheryte 1y agoLet's not forget that Magnus didn't lose his world champion title, he gave it up willingly after holding the title from 2013 to 2021. All those years where everyone else is focusing specifically on how to defeat him and still coming short. He's talked about this at length in interviews, mostly it just became incredibly boring.
- eterm 1y agoOnly Magnus really knows if it was "incredibly boring" or he feared losing over the board, and even he might not really know himself. I think it's a shame for the sport that he wasn't willing to risk losing his WC title over the board, but make no mistake, he has lost his WC title regardless.
- Etheryte 1y agoI'm not really sure this argument makes sense. He held the title for eight years and had numerous serious challengers over that time, so I wouldn't really say he didn't risk it over the board.
- whizzter 1y agoIirc also this new Gukesh champion was only like 15 years old back then, yes he was spotted as an upcoming contender, but at that time there wasn't really any competitor that was close enough, iirc he had soundly beat the same guy twice in a row over in title matches at that point so at that time the competitor pool wasn't really too threatening.
- davidguetta 1y agoIt's pretty obvious that he's genuine for anyone that has been at the top of something for long enough. At some point winning is normalised so you don't feel pleasure but the pain / fear of losing is still here. It's always about Pleasure / Pain
- ngc248 1y agoWow .. you know how to put a positive spin on him losing
- kadoban 1y ago> Don't get me wrong, Magnus is still world #1 for a reason, but he used to be at a level where no-one could even scratch him. Now he has to fight much harder for victories, and he's not enjoying that. I get the sense that it's less he has to fight harder to win, and more he has to grind boring studying just to even play. I don't _think_ he'd care that much if his win rate is going down if just being there didn't require spending all day, every day, memorizing lines.
- stef25 1y ago> Now he has to fight much harder for victories Did he get worse or did the others get better ?
- matsemann 1y agoIt's hard to gauge, because ratings between different years (pools) can't really be compared. But I'd say he has declined a bit, but no one else has really stepped up in the meantime. Gukesh and some are on their way, but for the last decade Magnus has been far above everyone else, and now that they're closer to him it's not really any new development from existing players.
- Timshel 1y ago> but he used to be at a level where no-one could even scratch him. As another factor could be that he is not doing the same quantity of prep anymore.
- revskill 1y ago[flagged]
- fracus 1y agoAs a casual spectator of chess tournament streams, I find speed chess to be much more enjoyable to watch. It isn't fun when the players aren't making mistakes. Classical chess feels like F1 racing where the work is done before the match with very little passing and timed chess feels like a derby rally with a lot of bumping and grinding. Just way more fun to watch.
- mcv 1y agoI remember Michael Schumacher just riding one perfect lap after another. He'd always qualify as first, start ahead, ride his perfect laps, and nobody would ever overtake him. It's impressive, but boring to watch.
- automatic6131 1y agoGood thing you didn't watch any F1 in 2023. It was the schumi era, but even worse.
- kibwen 1y agoForget Chess960, abandon castling, abandon symmetry, embrace Transcendental Chess! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_chess https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendental_chess
- pingou 1y agoInteresting, but it's too bad the setup is not equal and you need to play twice to make it fair. I prefer Sumochess.
- keyle 1y agoCan't blame him. Getting older, the search space being so much clearer than before, razor thin margins, the concentration, the time spent before and during. I think he plays a bit of poker too, maybe he can shine in that space too.
- dismalaf 1y agoUnfortunately modern online hold'em is just as robotic and boring as chess. Live Omaha was fun, but died off post-Covid where I live...
- Scarblac 1y agoAs an amateur player (~2000 ish), classical is where it's at. I love the feeling of deep focus that is so hard to find in the rest of life these days but that I can still get into in a serious, slow over the board game. The problems of the top players are not those of amateurs.
- dismalaf 1y agoChess was far more fun 20+ years ago. Before everyone had a supercomputer-powered chess engine in their hands... While studying openings was a thing, it still felt like there was room for improvisation and tactics. Now playing feels like a chore and more about rote memorization than actually playing a game.
- whizzter 1y agoI wonder if it'd be better or worse to scale timelimits? Say once ratings are over 1500, the lowest ranked players rating is used to calculate the time-limits of the game. A player at or below 1500 still has the same times (to let us amateurs consider a bit) but scale so that once players approach 3000 in ranking the speed basically becomes rapid or blitz. If even pros make mistakes at that level, it should get rid of much draws and overly long games. And perhaps even appeal to a wider audience in our sped up society.
- genewitch 1y agoIsn't speed chess already a thing? Is this a different idea?
- modernerd 1y agoTime isn't that much of a handicap. High-level players just have much better pattern recognition and intuition. It's the same reason they adapt faster to weird positions in Fischer Random than lower-rated classical players. Even with gaps of 200 points the thinking and play speed difference is acute at high levels, for example in Magnus' playful "too weak, too slow" casual blitz: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY27lgnPKWI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY27lgnPKWI
- baruchel 1y agoJust my two cents: a very interesting website for playing chess variants — https://greenchess.net/ https://greenchess.net/ . It has a simple, efficient, and uncluttered interface with no ads and many variants available. Unfortunately, the number of active players is a bit low.
- thom 1y agoI think everyone here can probably sympathise when a job stops being about the bits you actually enjoy or are good at. I have no doubt Magnus is the best ever, but the vast majority of the effort in classical chess is spent away from the board. Slogging through an opponent and their team’s computer driven opening prep just isn’t super fun and probably isn’t why most people fall in love with chess. Anyone who has gone from being a programmer to being stuck in meetings and managing other people all day perhaps knows what it’s like to fantasise about packing it in and returning to simpler times.
- ale 1y agoI believe that to people like Magnus it goes beyond "the job becoming boring" and his stance alludes directly to Fischer's disillusionment with the game – lacking in genuine and human creativity.
- neom 1y agoI don't play or know anything about Chess so I went to look up your comment, I presume it's about this gent: https://www.chess.com/blog/Mx_Nat/why-bobby-fischer-hated-chess https://www.chess.com/blog/Mx_Nat/why-bobby-fischer-hated-ch... I read the above and it made me feel he was annoyed that Chess is a strategic zero sum game? "preparation and memorization than pure skill and innovation" - I think (at least in the zero sum strategy game I love) - prep + data IS the skill and innovation, how do you prep and where do you get your data, that's the joy of the game?
- otabdeveloper4 1y ago> he was annoyed that Chess is a strategic zero sum game? No, he's complaining about the depth of the decision tree at the start of the game.
- neom 1y agoI understand, but isn't the opening decision tree depth IS the zero sum nature playing out?? the depth of the opening decision tree exactly what you'd expect in a zero sum strategic game? In any highly competitive zero sum environment (poker, business, etc.), players will inevitably explore and optimize every available edge, ESPECIALLY preparation? That was the fun of it I thought? Any arms race in opening theory is a natural consequence of the zero sum structure... if memorizing 25 moves gives you an edge over someone who memorized 23, the competitive pressure forces everyone deeper into preparation?
- Theofrastus 1y agoChess960/Freestyle Chess is where it's at for me. There, the game feels fresh, it's about creativity and clever positional play. Sometimes when playing classical, it feels like a contest of who can memorize better, without room for creativity or passion. I'm not a particularly good classical player, but the mountain of grinding to get good just seems insurmountable to me.
- fingerprince 1y ago960 has certainly gained some momentum and I very much hope to see Magnus continue to push it forward -- it's such a natural evolution of chess in the age of engines. Perhaps all it needs to take off is a world champion backing it who's less insane than Fischer!
- mellosouls 1y agoOld news tbh. Why do you think the current classical champion isn't Magnus? He's long said he's bored with it; the recent Gukesh slam-the-board viral moment has just resurfaced his frustration with it.
- genewitch 1y agoDidnt slam the board from what I saw, just the table, like in a cop show. And then nearly immediately stuck his hand out to shake in congratulation.
- mellosouls 1y agoYeah I didn't see it as negative either, passion and apology, it was actually a memorable moment overall including Gukesh reaction.
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- bawolff 1y agoI could imagine people are into chess for the challenge of it, and if you make it to the very top, the challenge goes away as there are no peers to play with.
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- debuggerson 1y agoHonestly, I'm not a huge fan of chess, and I don't know much about the different rules or playstyles. However, I’ve come across some of Magnus’s videos before. I admire his confidence in his abilities, but I know some people don’t like him, thinking he has a high ego and can come off as cocky at times. While many may be happy to see his recent loss to Rukesh, there’s no denying he’s been the best for so long. Maybe he hasn’t found someone who excites him in classical chess, someone at his level. After all, being unbeatable can be a lonely place.
- globular-toast 1y agoThis is the main reason I don't like games or sports. It's fun when everyone is new to the game, but the moment you get people practising and studying outside of the game it becomes work. Some people just have a higher threshold for this than others, it seems.
- usrbinbash 1y agoThe core problem is, that chess is essentially a solved game now. There is no human that can outplay the top chess algorithms. This commodization of top skill, means everyone can afford to play against, and learn from, an entity that is above human skill. Once this point is achieved, the skill focus dramatically shifts: The better player is the one who can hold and query more data learned from the above-human-skill entity in his human brain. Which, don't get me wrong, is still a beyond-impressive skill at the level of top players, but its not what people really enjoy or mean when they talk about "Chess". In a very general way, this is a problem that afflicts not just Chess, but all solves games where players have complete information about the game state.
- matsemann 1y agoI think this is a wrong take. Sure, opening preparation is important, especially in matches (like the World Championship), but once you're out of prep it's not "just a memory game". Magnus is known for squeezing victories out of dead equal end game positions, not because of memory (they're all new positions) but because of intuition and accuracy.
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- Coaturne 1y ago[dead]
- hn92726819 1y agoAll the pieces are strangely hovering in the second picture. I thought it might be an AI generated image or something. Nope, Carlsen punched the table: https://x.com/NorwayChess/status/1929257237190443042 https://x.com/NorwayChess/status/1929257237190443042
- addandsubtract 1y agoI would just like to appreciate how good of a picture that is, where Magnus is slamming the desk, Gukesh is looking at him, and the chess pieces are suspended in mid air. You couldn't have staged that picture any better. I'm not sure what annual photo contests there are (sports? history?), but this picture should win an award.
- bufferoverflow 1y agoMaybe it's a frame of a video?