8 ms·

Wife has a relative who was just (this weekend) in a major accident where a tesla ran into them and pushed their a ditch where it rolled a few times. Initial r

by mosdl 1y ago

Wife has a relative who was just (this weekend) in a major accident where a tesla ran into them and pushed their a ditch where it rolled a few times. Initial report says the Tesla was in self drive mode. Will be interesting to see who was at fault here but so far it is not looking good for Tesla.

andsoitis 1y ago
> ran into them and pushed their a ditch where it rolled a few times that sounds rough; hopefully they're OK! did the car drive into them from the side or from behind? where did it happen? googling "Tesla ditch self-driving accident" turns up nothing, but I would have thought it would have made the news.
- gamblor956 1y ago
  Self driving Teslas getting into accidents is now so common that it is no longer news.
- wskinner 1y ago
  There are over 40,000 _fatal_ car crashes per year in the US, and a few orders of magnitude more non-fatal crashes. Most of them do not make the news.
  - genewitch 1y ago
    A plurality of those are in Texas, as well. I used to say, someone in the US is more likely to die in a car wreck in Texas even if they never go to Texas, that's how skewed they make the statistics. But I stopped looking at the stats a few years ago so I stopped saying and defending that. It's just a new lens to view this information through.
    - callc 1y ago
      Source? A quick googling shows from https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/fatal-car-accidents-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/fatal-car-a... deaths per 100k pop in 2022: - Mississippi 23.9 (highest) - Texas 14.7 - CA 11.3 - Rhode Island and DC 4.8 (lowest) Anecdotally, the huge trucks and driving culture (aggressive, fast) would have made me guess Texas has higher deaths before seeing the data.
      - meepmorp 1y ago
        what is up with Mississippi? it's second for "deaths per 100mil miles" as well.
        jeffbee 1y ago
        Car wrecks are correlated with all kinds of things from education to poverty and Mississippi is dead last or tied for last in every dimension of quality of life.
        genewitch 1y ago
        also the roads outside of the interstates and US highways are pretty awful, in my (limited) experience driving in MS. one time we had to brake from 60 because a cow was on a bridge over an interstate.
      - mkl 1y ago
        2021 here: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/fatal-car-accidents-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/fatal-car-a... Texas has a plurality of fatal car accidents (for USA), but California is not far behind, and in 2022 California has slightly more deaths. (This page doesn't have the number of fatal car accidents for 2022, which is a bit odd.) 2023 here, Texas has plurality again, with California close behind: https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/States/StatesCrashesAndAllVictims.aspx https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/States/StatesCrashesAndAllVic... You're not looking at absolute numbers, which is what plurality means. I don't see how "someone in the US is more likely to die in a car wreck in Texas even if they never go to Texas" could make sense.
        genewitch 1y ago
        like this: A driver in the US dies while driving due to a crash/wreck/whatever. Statistically, that occurred with the highest probability in TX. as i said, this was like 2015-2019 when i used to claim this. There's a sign on freeways in TX that say "highway deaths so far in <year>: <16 bit int>" which led me to start looking in to it, and i think my little quip is just a way to draw attention to how dangerous it is to drive in TX. But it is quite large, Texas.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- jfoster 1y ago
  For stories like this, I think it's usually just a small sample that end up making the news.
- mosdl 1y ago
  Happened in north carolina, but the incident is still being investigated according to the relative who is still in the hospital (luckily only major bruising, nothing broken, subarus are really good at rolling safety it turns out).
philosophty 1y ago
Seems like culpability should come down to whether or not the Telsa driver could have prevented the accident. Although there's a good argument to be made that Tesla's entire system has fundamental design flaws which they have negligently disregarded.
- irjustin 1y ago
  To me anything less than true level 4 should remain with the driver. I also believe that marketing it as FSD should be liable and scrutinized as a level 4 system. Because when you hear FSD, the public naturally thinks the abilities marked in level 4 arguably even 5.
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    Until the car requests intervention and the timer runs out, levels 3 and 4 are supposed to have the same behavior. If that process has not happened, why should the driver's level of responsibility be any different? (Though a consequence is that levels 3 and 4 are very close together in difficulty. We might not see many level 3 cars.)
    - jeffreygoesto 1y ago
      Volvo was visionary and dismissed Level 3 in about 2014 for being too dangerous. Basically the car drives until it doesn't and you may suddenly die because the time to get the situation and react is too short. Level 3 way purely for managers to claim it would be a linear progression whereas it is petty much THE gorge of automated driving. If you look at the SAE table it's just a little blue wart in a green column, but it's a lethal one. https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/gallery/cm/content/news/sae-blog/j3016graphic_2021.png https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/gallery/cm/content/news...
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        > because the time to get the situation and react is too short The time is up to the manufacturer, isn't it? Mercedes uses 10 seconds right now and that seems pretty good to me. At that point I know it can't be too dire or the car would have already emergency stopped.
naikrovek 1y ago
Watch out for Tesla automobiles automatically turning off FSD just before impact so they can say that FSD was not in use at the time of impact. I’ve heard rumors of that happening.
- mindslight 1y ago
  Isn't that the whole point of levels 2 and 3? Fine print applied to the marketed operating modes of heavy equipment. Surprise, you were supposed to be driving!
  - michaelmrose 1y ago
    People on average can't effectively pretend to drive and switch to actually driving very effectively
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    "Surprise, you were supposed to be driving" is a level 2 problem. Level 2 requires inhuman levels of constant vigilance. Level 3 requires you to be awake and able to drive, and you will get several seconds of warning to switch from watching TV to looking at the road.
    - mindslight 1y ago
      I always forget the levels, and I couldn't tell from a quick reading how much time L3 gave you. So sure, "several seconds" isn't deep in "surprise, you should have been driving" territory, but it's still on the order of a developing situation which a computer could get into and then balk and demand the human get themselves out of. That amount of time is also nowhere near enough for a human to switch tasks like that. I would say it should be at least a minute or two, and even that is pushing it with how people are bound to use the system (spacing out while watching a TV show, etc).
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        Are you suggesting it takes people a minute or two to start driving and get up to a basic level of safety? How does that even work? There's no way sitting still in a parking lot of driveway counts as getting into the groove.
panick21_ 1y ago
Initial reports always claim Tesla was in self driving mode. I have seen that a number of times. In one case there was a claim the driver was in the backseat. This got widely published in all media outlets. And turned out to be complete nonsense, it wasn't even in autopilot. But of course it could be true but I would wait for the data.

by mosdl 1y ago

andsoitis 1y ago

> ran into them and pushed their a ditch where it rolled a few times that sounds rough; hopefully they're OK! did the car drive into them from the side or from behind? where did it happen? googling "Tesla ditch self-driving accident" turns up nothing, but I would have thought it would have made the news.

gamblor956 1y ago
Self driving Teslas getting into accidents is now so common that it is no longer news.
wskinner 1y ago
There are over 40,000 _fatal_ car crashes per year in the US, and a few orders of magnitude more non-fatal crashes. Most of them do not make the news.
- genewitch 1y ago
  A plurality of those are in Texas, as well. I used to say, someone in the US is more likely to die in a car wreck in Texas even if they never go to Texas, that's how skewed they make the statistics. But I stopped looking at the stats a few years ago so I stopped saying and defending that. It's just a new lens to view this information through.
  - callc 1y ago
    Source? A quick googling shows from https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/fatal-car-accidents-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/fatal-car-a... deaths per 100k pop in 2022: - Mississippi 23.9 (highest) - Texas 14.7 - CA 11.3 - Rhode Island and DC 4.8 (lowest) Anecdotally, the huge trucks and driving culture (aggressive, fast) would have made me guess Texas has higher deaths before seeing the data.
    - meepmorp 1y ago
      what is up with Mississippi? it's second for "deaths per 100mil miles" as well.
      - jeffbee 1y ago
        Car wrecks are correlated with all kinds of things from education to poverty and Mississippi is dead last or tied for last in every dimension of quality of life.
        genewitch 1y ago
        also the roads outside of the interstates and US highways are pretty awful, in my (limited) experience driving in MS. one time we had to brake from 60 because a cow was on a bridge over an interstate.
    - mkl 1y ago
      2021 here: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/fatal-car-accidents-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/fatal-car-a... Texas has a plurality of fatal car accidents (for USA), but California is not far behind, and in 2022 California has slightly more deaths. (This page doesn't have the number of fatal car accidents for 2022, which is a bit odd.) 2023 here, Texas has plurality again, with California close behind: https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/States/StatesCrashesAndAllVictims.aspx https://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/States/StatesCrashesAndAllVic... You're not looking at absolute numbers, which is what plurality means. I don't see how "someone in the US is more likely to die in a car wreck in Texas even if they never go to Texas" could make sense.
      - genewitch 1y ago
        like this: A driver in the US dies while driving due to a crash/wreck/whatever. Statistically, that occurred with the highest probability in TX. as i said, this was like 2015-2019 when i used to claim this. There's a sign on freeways in TX that say "highway deaths so far in <year>: <16 bit int>" which led me to start looking in to it, and i think my little quip is just a way to draw attention to how dangerous it is to drive in TX. But it is quite large, Texas.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
jfoster 1y ago
For stories like this, I think it's usually just a small sample that end up making the news.
mosdl 1y ago
Happened in north carolina, but the incident is still being investigated according to the relative who is still in the hospital (luckily only major bruising, nothing broken, subarus are really good at rolling safety it turns out).

philosophty 1y ago

Seems like culpability should come down to whether or not the Telsa driver could have prevented the accident. Although there's a good argument to be made that Tesla's entire system has fundamental design flaws which they have negligently disregarded.

irjustin 1y ago
To me anything less than true level 4 should remain with the driver. I also believe that marketing it as FSD should be liable and scrutinized as a level 4 system. Because when you hear FSD, the public naturally thinks the abilities marked in level 4 arguably even 5.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  Until the car requests intervention and the timer runs out, levels 3 and 4 are supposed to have the same behavior. If that process has not happened, why should the driver's level of responsibility be any different? (Though a consequence is that levels 3 and 4 are very close together in difficulty. We might not see many level 3 cars.)
  - jeffreygoesto 1y ago
    Volvo was visionary and dismissed Level 3 in about 2014 for being too dangerous. Basically the car drives until it doesn't and you may suddenly die because the time to get the situation and react is too short. Level 3 way purely for managers to claim it would be a linear progression whereas it is petty much THE gorge of automated driving. If you look at the SAE table it's just a little blue wart in a green column, but it's a lethal one. https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/gallery/cm/content/news/sae-blog/j3016graphic_2021.png https://www.sae.org/binaries/content/gallery/cm/content/news...
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      > because the time to get the situation and react is too short The time is up to the manufacturer, isn't it? Mercedes uses 10 seconds right now and that seems pretty good to me. At that point I know it can't be too dire or the car would have already emergency stopped.

naikrovek 1y ago

Watch out for Tesla automobiles automatically turning off FSD just before impact so they can say that FSD was not in use at the time of impact. I’ve heard rumors of that happening.

mindslight 1y ago
Isn't that the whole point of levels 2 and 3? Fine print applied to the marketed operating modes of heavy equipment. Surprise, you were supposed to be driving!
- michaelmrose 1y ago
  People on average can't effectively pretend to drive and switch to actually driving very effectively
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  "Surprise, you were supposed to be driving" is a level 2 problem. Level 2 requires inhuman levels of constant vigilance. Level 3 requires you to be awake and able to drive, and you will get several seconds of warning to switch from watching TV to looking at the road.
  - mindslight 1y ago
    I always forget the levels, and I couldn't tell from a quick reading how much time L3 gave you. So sure, "several seconds" isn't deep in "surprise, you should have been driving" territory, but it's still on the order of a developing situation which a computer could get into and then balk and demand the human get themselves out of. That amount of time is also nowhere near enough for a human to switch tasks like that. I would say it should be at least a minute or two, and even that is pushing it with how people are bound to use the system (spacing out while watching a TV show, etc).
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      Are you suggesting it takes people a minute or two to start driving and get up to a basic level of safety? How does that even work? There's no way sitting still in a parking lot of driveway counts as getting into the groove.

panick21_ 1y ago

Initial reports always claim Tesla was in self driving mode. I have seen that a number of times. In one case there was a claim the driver was in the backseat. This got widely published in all media outlets. And turned out to be complete nonsense, it wasn't even in autopilot. But of course it could be true but I would wait for the data.