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I was super excited about Precious Plastic when I discovered them 8 years ago. But it didn't take long to realize that they didn't have a clue. The machines ar

by nchmy 1y ago

I was super excited about Precious Plastic when I discovered them 8 years ago. But it didn't take long to realize that they didn't have a clue. The machines are all FAR too small and fancy/expensive to really make much sense. I've seen some more practical offshoots from PP that design larger machines with recycled materials etc, and consequently they have sustainable businesses around the world. So, most of all, as is clear from the post, they never really even tried - in over a decade - to make it a viable, self-sustaining enterprise, of any sort. Also, what's conspicuously missing from the post is their Portugal-based Precious Plastic Camp boondoggle, which always struck me as a hipster commune more than anything. They also suddenly deleted the original forums, which contained lots of fantastic info. So, I don't have much faith that throwing more good money after bad would help at all. I'm grateful for the inspiration and excitement that they brought into the world, but it's time for them to be recycled. And, yet, I expect they'll con someone into helping revive them for version 5, 6 and beyond. That's the way of the non-profit world.

robingchan 1y ago
I hate to say it but i sort of agree. I’ve also followed PP from the initial grant in Paris but a lot of these problems seem to be self-inflicted. Ones that most stood out were having no insurance, unrealistic open source expectations and giving $100k away rather than furthering the cause. I’m sure theres minutiae and context i’m missing but that post doesn’t scream competence. I’m worried any donation would be fluttered away. The line about being at peace with the project dying seems bizarre. Perhaps time for a little organisational shakeup
- xmprt 1y ago
  > The line about being at peace with the project dying seems bizarre Perhaps it's just me but this was the line that made the most sense to me. If a non-profit thinks they've achieved their mission, or at least that they don't have a good plan for next steps, then the most sensible thing to do is to close shop rather than to spend money unnecessarily.
- oulipo 1y ago
  Hindsight is always 10/10. They might have tried something new, and most of founders learn by making experiences and mistakes. I don't see an issue here
  - nchmy 1y ago
    They're pleading for funds for version 5... Details of which they'll only work on and share IF they get more money... If you don't see an issue here, they we can safely preclude you from a future in any sort of investment or management.
blagie 1y ago
"Con" is a strong word, and I'm not sure appropriate. If someone was taking a $500k salary from donated funds, I'd feel it's a con. I see nothing to that effect. People without a clue sometimes pick up a clue after some time. Donors donate for a variety of reasons. There are angel investors who donate simply because they want to push a concept along, or want to help nice people. If someone wealthy decides to support them instead of e.g. buying a supercar or a $10M painting, I think it's all good. Live and let live.
- nchmy 1y ago
  you're right, 'con' was far too strong and unfair of a word. They seem like decent enough people, but completely incapable of running a project like this. Which is what a significant portion of the non-profit world is made up of. I don't think its all good though if someone donates to keep it alive - there's many FAR more worthy organizations to give money to, be it for plastic or any other cause. And, quite often, those that receive large amounts of funds are far better at marketing (or, worse, playing "the game"), than actually operating
  - Propelloni 1y ago
    Who would you donate to, if you'd donate to an effort in the "plastic space"?
    - spiderfarmer 1y ago
      If I wanted to spend 100k on plastic recycling, I’d start a company with a viable business model. The most probable business model would be shaming big companies into paying me for green washing, so hiring great marketing talent would be top priority. Getting the first companies on board to fund further development would be second.
      - Propelloni 1y ago
        I appreciate the cynicism but who would you donate to?
patcon 1y ago
I think it is a shame that such a negative comment is at the top. In fact, I am ashamed by association. Their burn rate is low (~$30,000/year now, though likely higher before) and the value they generate for everyone else has clearly been very high, even just in intangibles. They sound like a public good, and you hang them out to dry for not being... a profitable corporation? Is there an alternate universe where you toss libraries under the bus as well, when they fail to pay their way like bookstores? (I'm curious if anyone has feelings, why or why not this is a reasonable comparison for me to make.) You (and those voting/speaking to your worldview) are likely materially collapsing something from existing through creating a narrative here. Which is meaningful because this community is likely one that could step up -- with a deep understanding of open source, and wealth through tech associations and profits. Is your take worth that? Sink or swim, creators and gift-givers? Is PP universally bad enough that you wish for that to be your contribution here?
- daedrdev 1y ago
  They seem at best perforative in their efforts as the original comment points out. Surely there is a middle ground where one can concede a company is poorly run and unprofitable, and that those two things often tie together
  - oulipo 1y ago
    One of the BIGGEST requirement for change is to *bring about a community*. Perhaps "technically" they haven't been "the best", but their major value has been creating a community of people who care and demand change. And that's a lot more than many people commenting here from their sofa could claim
    - ackfoobar 1y ago
      A community around recycling reminds me of the article "We wash our trash to repent for killing God". Like some commenters in this discussion I believe plastic recycling is a distraction at best.
jdietrich 1y ago
As I see it, the fundamental issue is that they're trying to create some kind of hand-made artisanal solution to a problem that is already being addressed on a vast scale by industry. My plastic waste is collected at the kerbside and has been for over a decade. It's baled up and sent off to a facility with huge automated sorting machines. Why would I take my plastic waste to a workshop when the local government already collect it from my doorstep? Precious Plastic have designed various DIY plastic processing machines for what is essentially hobby use. That's fine, whatever, but for about the same cost I can just buy a commercially-made machine. A manual injection molding machine or a benchtop filament extruder is just a thing you can buy on AliExpress. If you wanted to set up a half-serious plastics business, you could buy an old Boy or Arburg injection molding machine on eBay for close to scrap value. If you want to feed that machine on recycled plastic, reprocessed pellets and regrind are a cheap commodity product. The problems that remain in plastic recycling are mainly really complex engineering and material science problems, because re-melting inevitably degrades the quality of polymers. Those issues are being slowly chipped away at by serious researchers in academia and industry. I don't doubt their sincerity, but feel-good aspirations rarely solve much of anything.
- bdcravens 1y ago
  I can't speak for your locale, but in the US, most "plastic recycling" is a myth, as very little of it is truly reusable. Trash companies basically resell what they collect, and if they can't, it ends up in the same landfills as the trash bin contents.
  - Mistletoe 1y ago
    The landfill is one of the best outcomes in most recycling scams. The worst is it ends up in the Pacific trash gyre after wasting fossil fuels sending it to a country halfway around the world to be dumped in a river.
    - delfinom 1y ago
      I would be surprised if any US trash ends up overseas these days. After China hardcore clamped down on imports of trash both "recycling" and "scrap" back around 2017?, every other country basically immediately fell over themselves to also ban imports because a tsunami of faux-recycling was going to hit them.
AriedK 1y ago
That's a bit of a cynical take in my opinion. For a community focused initiative, I'd say they deserve a bit more slack in terms of expectations of professionality, scale and sustainability. They now leave it up to the community to decide to pursue that or abandon altogether. Fair thing to do I'd say. Also: the original forums aren't suddenly deleted: https://davehakkens.nl/community/forums/index.html https://davehakkens.nl/community/forums/index.html He explains the process of migrating into 'One Army': https://davehakkens.nl/index.html https://davehakkens.nl/index.html
- nchmy 1y ago
  Why are community and competence mutually exclusive? Also, again, the main criticism was that the machines are simply not useful, practical or accessible - especially for those who live in areas that most need recycling initiatives. Rather than design larger, more effective machines from recycled materials (eg make shredder blades from leaf springs), it's all specialized alloys, laser cutting, etc. As for the forum, its been a while since I've looked at any of their stuff. But I am quite certain that there was a period where the forum had disappeared. Someone even managed to copy/fork the forum. I can't find it right now though. I'll share it if I find it.
  - zevon 1y ago
    I look at the PP machines like I would at a traditional toolroom mill or a standard desktop 3D printer: Middle-ground compromises with relatively sharp upper limits (that can often be worked around by putting in way more work). I've actually been in contexts where even the standard PP-machines were too big. However, I'd also like to have a bigger shredder and the approach of simplifying it an making it from available resources sounds great. Do you know if concepts like hacking leaf springs have been tried out in the PP project or in another context and if there are machines/blueprints available? Btw: As far as I know, a lot of the design of the PP-machines has evolved by way of largely self-taught and more or less chaotic experimentation. So, it seemed to me that most of the development work on the machines is actually much closer to the contexts you refer to than it is to fibre lasers and specialized metallurgy.
culi 1y ago
What sets PP apart from companies making similar machines is their commitment to open source hardware. They make some machines themselves and sell them but their main focus has always been the open source blueprints that (in theory) any one can use to make these machines at home Lots of cross over with Open Source Ecology's Global Village Construction kit[0] where they attempted to create open source versions of 50 technologies they considered critical for civilization. They made a brick press and a tractor but I think progress slowed after that [0] https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/ https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/
knowitnone 1y ago
your comment is highly aggressive. "The machines are all FAR too small" They've given you the design, you can easily scale it larger. "expensive" then move on. "they never really even tried" they tried more than you. They built it, and release the plans. Mission accomplished. If you even bothered reading their post where they say once the project is complete, they walk away for a while. "hipster commune" and what is wrong with that? "deleted the original forums" perhaps there was a reason? "it's time for them to be recycled" it's time for you to be recycled "they'll con" thems are fighting words and you should expect a lawsuit "That's the way of the non-profit world" I doubt you've even given but I'm sure you've taken. take your money to your grave

by nchmy 1y ago

robingchan 1y ago

I hate to say it but i sort of agree. I’ve also followed PP from the initial grant in Paris but a lot of these problems seem to be self-inflicted. Ones that most stood out were having no insurance, unrealistic open source expectations and giving $100k away rather than furthering the cause. I’m sure theres minutiae and context i’m missing but that post doesn’t scream competence. I’m worried any donation would be fluttered away. The line about being at peace with the project dying seems bizarre. Perhaps time for a little organisational shakeup

xmprt 1y ago
> The line about being at peace with the project dying seems bizarre Perhaps it's just me but this was the line that made the most sense to me. If a non-profit thinks they've achieved their mission, or at least that they don't have a good plan for next steps, then the most sensible thing to do is to close shop rather than to spend money unnecessarily.
oulipo 1y ago
Hindsight is always 10/10. They might have tried something new, and most of founders learn by making experiences and mistakes. I don't see an issue here
- nchmy 1y ago
  They're pleading for funds for version 5... Details of which they'll only work on and share IF they get more money... If you don't see an issue here, they we can safely preclude you from a future in any sort of investment or management.

blagie 1y ago

"Con" is a strong word, and I'm not sure appropriate. If someone was taking a $500k salary from donated funds, I'd feel it's a con. I see nothing to that effect. People without a clue sometimes pick up a clue after some time. Donors donate for a variety of reasons. There are angel investors who donate simply because they want to push a concept along, or want to help nice people. If someone wealthy decides to support them instead of e.g. buying a supercar or a $10M painting, I think it's all good. Live and let live.

nchmy 1y ago
you're right, 'con' was far too strong and unfair of a word. They seem like decent enough people, but completely incapable of running a project like this. Which is what a significant portion of the non-profit world is made up of. I don't think its all good though if someone donates to keep it alive - there's many FAR more worthy organizations to give money to, be it for plastic or any other cause. And, quite often, those that receive large amounts of funds are far better at marketing (or, worse, playing "the game"), than actually operating
- Propelloni 1y ago
  Who would you donate to, if you'd donate to an effort in the "plastic space"?
  - spiderfarmer 1y ago
    If I wanted to spend 100k on plastic recycling, I’d start a company with a viable business model. The most probable business model would be shaming big companies into paying me for green washing, so hiring great marketing talent would be top priority. Getting the first companies on board to fund further development would be second.
    - Propelloni 1y ago
      I appreciate the cynicism but who would you donate to?

patcon 1y ago

I think it is a shame that such a negative comment is at the top. In fact, I am ashamed by association. Their burn rate is low (~$30,000/year now, though likely higher before) and the value they generate for everyone else has clearly been very high, even just in intangibles. They sound like a public good, and you hang them out to dry for not being... a profitable corporation? Is there an alternate universe where you toss libraries under the bus as well, when they fail to pay their way like bookstores? (I'm curious if anyone has feelings, why or why not this is a reasonable comparison for me to make.) You (and those voting/speaking to your worldview) are likely materially collapsing something from existing through creating a narrative here. Which is meaningful because this community is likely one that could step up -- with a deep understanding of open source, and wealth through tech associations and profits. Is your take worth that? Sink or swim, creators and gift-givers? Is PP universally bad enough that you wish for that to be your contribution here?

daedrdev 1y ago
They seem at best perforative in their efforts as the original comment points out. Surely there is a middle ground where one can concede a company is poorly run and unprofitable, and that those two things often tie together
- oulipo 1y ago
  One of the BIGGEST requirement for change is to *bring about a community*. Perhaps "technically" they haven't been "the best", but their major value has been creating a community of people who care and demand change. And that's a lot more than many people commenting here from their sofa could claim
  - ackfoobar 1y ago
    A community around recycling reminds me of the article "We wash our trash to repent for killing God". Like some commenters in this discussion I believe plastic recycling is a distraction at best.

jdietrich 1y ago

As I see it, the fundamental issue is that they're trying to create some kind of hand-made artisanal solution to a problem that is already being addressed on a vast scale by industry. My plastic waste is collected at the kerbside and has been for over a decade. It's baled up and sent off to a facility with huge automated sorting machines. Why would I take my plastic waste to a workshop when the local government already collect it from my doorstep? Precious Plastic have designed various DIY plastic processing machines for what is essentially hobby use. That's fine, whatever, but for about the same cost I can just buy a commercially-made machine. A manual injection molding machine or a benchtop filament extruder is just a thing you can buy on AliExpress. If you wanted to set up a half-serious plastics business, you could buy an old Boy or Arburg injection molding machine on eBay for close to scrap value. If you want to feed that machine on recycled plastic, reprocessed pellets and regrind are a cheap commodity product. The problems that remain in plastic recycling are mainly really complex engineering and material science problems, because re-melting inevitably degrades the quality of polymers. Those issues are being slowly chipped away at by serious researchers in academia and industry. I don't doubt their sincerity, but feel-good aspirations rarely solve much of anything.

bdcravens 1y ago
I can't speak for your locale, but in the US, most "plastic recycling" is a myth, as very little of it is truly reusable. Trash companies basically resell what they collect, and if they can't, it ends up in the same landfills as the trash bin contents.
- Mistletoe 1y ago
  The landfill is one of the best outcomes in most recycling scams. The worst is it ends up in the Pacific trash gyre after wasting fossil fuels sending it to a country halfway around the world to be dumped in a river.
  - delfinom 1y ago
    I would be surprised if any US trash ends up overseas these days. After China hardcore clamped down on imports of trash both "recycling" and "scrap" back around 2017?, every other country basically immediately fell over themselves to also ban imports because a tsunami of faux-recycling was going to hit them.

AriedK 1y ago

That's a bit of a cynical take in my opinion. For a community focused initiative, I'd say they deserve a bit more slack in terms of expectations of professionality, scale and sustainability. They now leave it up to the community to decide to pursue that or abandon altogether. Fair thing to do I'd say. Also: the original forums aren't suddenly deleted: https://davehakkens.nl/community/forums/index.html https://davehakkens.nl/community/forums/index.html He explains the process of migrating into 'One Army': https://davehakkens.nl/index.html https://davehakkens.nl/index.html

nchmy 1y ago
Why are community and competence mutually exclusive? Also, again, the main criticism was that the machines are simply not useful, practical or accessible - especially for those who live in areas that most need recycling initiatives. Rather than design larger, more effective machines from recycled materials (eg make shredder blades from leaf springs), it's all specialized alloys, laser cutting, etc. As for the forum, its been a while since I've looked at any of their stuff. But I am quite certain that there was a period where the forum had disappeared. Someone even managed to copy/fork the forum. I can't find it right now though. I'll share it if I find it.
- zevon 1y ago
  I look at the PP machines like I would at a traditional toolroom mill or a standard desktop 3D printer: Middle-ground compromises with relatively sharp upper limits (that can often be worked around by putting in way more work). I've actually been in contexts where even the standard PP-machines were too big. However, I'd also like to have a bigger shredder and the approach of simplifying it an making it from available resources sounds great. Do you know if concepts like hacking leaf springs have been tried out in the PP project or in another context and if there are machines/blueprints available? Btw: As far as I know, a lot of the design of the PP-machines has evolved by way of largely self-taught and more or less chaotic experimentation. So, it seemed to me that most of the development work on the machines is actually much closer to the contexts you refer to than it is to fibre lasers and specialized metallurgy.

culi 1y ago

What sets PP apart from companies making similar machines is their commitment to open source hardware. They make some machines themselves and sell them but their main focus has always been the open source blueprints that (in theory) any one can use to make these machines at home Lots of cross over with Open Source Ecology's Global Village Construction kit[0] where they attempted to create open source versions of 50 technologies they considered critical for civilization. They made a brick press and a tractor but I think progress slowed after that [0] https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/ https://www.opensourceecology.org/gvcs/

knowitnone 1y ago

your comment is highly aggressive. "The machines are all FAR too small" They've given you the design, you can easily scale it larger. "expensive" then move on. "they never really even tried" they tried more than you. They built it, and release the plans. Mission accomplished. If you even bothered reading their post where they say once the project is complete, they walk away for a while. "hipster commune" and what is wrong with that? "deleted the original forums" perhaps there was a reason? "it's time for them to be recycled" it's time for you to be recycled "they'll con" thems are fighting words and you should expect a lawsuit "That's the way of the non-profit world" I doubt you've even given but I'm sure you've taken. take your money to your grave