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> Java has had AOT compilation for a while, so traditional GC and its massive overhead are no longer a strict necessity. You mean it does escape analysis and s

> Java has had AOT compilation for a while, so traditional GC and its massive overhead are no longer a strict necessity. You mean it does escape analysis and stack-allocates what it can? That would definitely help, but not eliminate the GC. Or are you thinking of something else? Thinking about it more, I remember that Java also has some performance-hostile design decisions baked in (e.g. almost everything's an Object, arrays aren't packed, dynamic dispatch everywhere). Swift doesn't have that legacy to deal with.

acdha 1y ago
Java also has a lot of culture making optimization-resistant code so there’s the question of whether you’re talking about the language itself or various widespread libraries, especially if they’re old enough to have patterns designed around aesthetics or now-moot language limitations rather than performance. I’ve replaced Java code with Python a few times and each time even though we did it for maintenance (more Python devs available) we saw memory usage more than halved while performance at least doubled because the code used simpler functions and structures. Java has a far more advanced GC and JIT but at some point the weight of code and indirection wins out.
- winrid 1y ago
  That's interesting. I did a line by line rewrite of a large Django route to Quarkus and it was 10x faster, not using async or anything.
  - acdha 1y ago
    That’s why I said “culture” - by all rights the JVM should win that competition. I wrote a bit more about the most recent one in a sibling comment but I’d summarize it as “the JVM can’t stop an enterprise Java developer”. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44179589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44179589
    - pjmlp 1y ago
      Enterprise developers and architects would be the same, regardless of the programming language. I am old enough to have seen enterprise C and C++ developers. Where do you think stuff like DCE, CORBA, DCOM has come from? Also many of the things people blame Java for, where born as Smalltalk, Objective-C and C++ frameworks before being re-written in Java. Since we are in a Apple discussion thread, here is some Objective-C ids from Apple frameworks, https://github.com/Quotation/LongestCocoa https://github.com/Quotation/LongestCocoa I also advise getting hold of the original WebObjects documentation in Objective-C, before its port to Java.
      - acdha 1y ago
        > Enterprise developers and architects would be the same, regardless of the programming language. This is true to some extent but the reason I focused on culture is that there are patterns which people learn and pass on differently in each language. For example, enterprise COBOL programmers didn’t duplicate data in memory to the same extent not only due hardware constraints but also because there wasn’t a culture telling every young programmer that was the exemplar style to follow. I totally agree about C++ having had the same problems but most of the enterprise folks jumped to Java or C# which felt like the community of people writing C++ improved the ratio of performance sensitive developers. Python had a bit of that, especially in the 2000s, but a lot of the Very Serious Architects didn’t like the language and so they didn’t influence the community anywhere near as much. I’m not saying everyone involved are terrible, I just find it interesting how we like to talk about software engineering but there are a lot of major factors which are basically things people want to believe are good.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  > I’ve replaced Java code with Python a few times ... while performance at least doubled Are you saying you made Python code run twice as fast as Java code? I have written lots of both. I really struggle to make Python go fast. What am I doing wrong?
  - acdha 1y ago
    More precisely, when deploying the new service microservice it used less than half as much CPU to process more requests per second. This is not “Java slow, Python fast” – I expected it to be the reverse – but rather that the developers who cranked out a messy Spring app somehow managed to cancel out all of the work the JVM developers have done without doing anything obviously wrong. There wasn’t a single bottleneck, just death by a thousand cuts with data access patterns, indirection, very deep stack traces, etc. I have no doubt that there are people here who could’ve rewritten it in better Java for significant wins but the goal with the rewrite was to align a project originally written by a departed team with a larger suite of Python code for the rest of the app, and to deal with various correctness issues. Using Pydantic for the data models not only reduced the amount of code significantly, it flushed out a bunch of inconsistency in the input validation and that’s what I’d been looking for along with reusing our common code libraries for consistency. The performance win was just gravy and, to be clear, I don’t think that’s saying anything about the JVM other than that it does not yet have an optimization to call an LLM to make code less enterprise-y.
    - throwaway2037 1y ago
      Okay, I understand your point. Basically, you rewrote an awful (clickbat-worthy) enterprisey Java web app into a reasonable, maintainable Python web app. I am sympathetic. Yes, I agree: I have seen, sadly, far more trashy Java enterprisey apps than not. Why? I don't know. The incentives are not well-aligned. As a counterpoint: Look at Crazy Bob's (Lee/R.I.P.) Google Guice or Norman Maurer's Netty.IO or Tim Fox's Vert.x: All of them are examples of how to write ultra-lean, low-level, high-performance modern Java apps... but are frequently overlooked to hire cheap, low-skill Java devs to write "yet another Spring app".

acdha 1y ago

Java also has a lot of culture making optimization-resistant code so there’s the question of whether you’re talking about the language itself or various widespread libraries, especially if they’re old enough to have patterns designed around aesthetics or now-moot language limitations rather than performance. I’ve replaced Java code with Python a few times and each time even though we did it for maintenance (more Python devs available) we saw memory usage more than halved while performance at least doubled because the code used simpler functions and structures. Java has a far more advanced GC and JIT but at some point the weight of code and indirection wins out.

winrid 1y ago
That's interesting. I did a line by line rewrite of a large Django route to Quarkus and it was 10x faster, not using async or anything.
- acdha 1y ago
  That’s why I said “culture” - by all rights the JVM should win that competition. I wrote a bit more about the most recent one in a sibling comment but I’d summarize it as “the JVM can’t stop an enterprise Java developer”. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44179589 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44179589
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Enterprise developers and architects would be the same, regardless of the programming language. I am old enough to have seen enterprise C and C++ developers. Where do you think stuff like DCE, CORBA, DCOM has come from? Also many of the things people blame Java for, where born as Smalltalk, Objective-C and C++ frameworks before being re-written in Java. Since we are in a Apple discussion thread, here is some Objective-C ids from Apple frameworks, https://github.com/Quotation/LongestCocoa https://github.com/Quotation/LongestCocoa I also advise getting hold of the original WebObjects documentation in Objective-C, before its port to Java.
    - acdha 1y ago
      > Enterprise developers and architects would be the same, regardless of the programming language. This is true to some extent but the reason I focused on culture is that there are patterns which people learn and pass on differently in each language. For example, enterprise COBOL programmers didn’t duplicate data in memory to the same extent not only due hardware constraints but also because there wasn’t a culture telling every young programmer that was the exemplar style to follow. I totally agree about C++ having had the same problems but most of the enterprise folks jumped to Java or C# which felt like the community of people writing C++ improved the ratio of performance sensitive developers. Python had a bit of that, especially in the 2000s, but a lot of the Very Serious Architects didn’t like the language and so they didn’t influence the community anywhere near as much. I’m not saying everyone involved are terrible, I just find it interesting how we like to talk about software engineering but there are a lot of major factors which are basically things people want to believe are good.
throwaway2037 1y ago
> I’ve replaced Java code with Python a few times ... while performance at least doubled Are you saying you made Python code run twice as fast as Java code? I have written lots of both. I really struggle to make Python go fast. What am I doing wrong?
- acdha 1y ago
  More precisely, when deploying the new service microservice it used less than half as much CPU to process more requests per second. This is not “Java slow, Python fast” – I expected it to be the reverse – but rather that the developers who cranked out a messy Spring app somehow managed to cancel out all of the work the JVM developers have done without doing anything obviously wrong. There wasn’t a single bottleneck, just death by a thousand cuts with data access patterns, indirection, very deep stack traces, etc. I have no doubt that there are people here who could’ve rewritten it in better Java for significant wins but the goal with the rewrite was to align a project originally written by a departed team with a larger suite of Python code for the rest of the app, and to deal with various correctness issues. Using Pydantic for the data models not only reduced the amount of code significantly, it flushed out a bunch of inconsistency in the input validation and that’s what I’d been looking for along with reusing our common code libraries for consistency. The performance win was just gravy and, to be clear, I don’t think that’s saying anything about the JVM other than that it does not yet have an optimization to call an LLM to make code less enterprise-y.
  - throwaway2037 1y ago
    Okay, I understand your point. Basically, you rewrote an awful (clickbat-worthy) enterprisey Java web app into a reasonable, maintainable Python web app. I am sympathetic. Yes, I agree: I have seen, sadly, far more trashy Java enterprisey apps than not. Why? I don't know. The incentives are not well-aligned. As a counterpoint: Look at Crazy Bob's (Lee/R.I.P.) Google Guice or Norman Maurer's Netty.IO or Tim Fox's Vert.x: All of them are examples of how to write ultra-lean, low-level, high-performance modern Java apps... but are frequently overlooked to hire cheap, low-skill Java devs to write "yet another Spring app".