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> Designing "ChatGPT-proof assignments" feels to me like a similar level of intellectual challenge. Designing a "mostly ChatGPT-proof class" is in my opinion a

> Designing "ChatGPT-proof assignments" feels to me like a similar level of intellectual challenge. Designing a "mostly ChatGPT-proof class" is in my opinion actually rather simple: just be inspired by the German university system: Each week you have to complete exercise sheets which are often hard. But being capable of solving a certain quota of the exercises is just the beginning: this only qualifies you for being allowed to take the actual (oral or written) exam. In this sense (as many professors will tell you), the basically sole purpose of the quota for solving (often hard) exercise sheets is actually preventing students from the "self-inflicted harm" of doing an exam that they are not yet prepared for. And yes: while it is forbidden to "cheat" (e.g. ChatGPT) on your exercise sheets, this policy is typically not strongly enforced (you will nearly always just get a unequivocal, strongly worded oral reprimand by the tutor). Instead, if you did this, you will for sure not be prepared for the upcoming exam, and flunk it (and most students are very aware of this). Oh yeah, I didn't mention yet that if you flunked the same exam typically 3 times (depending on the university), you have "finally failed" (endgültig nicht bestanden), and are not allowed anymore to study the same degree course at every German university.

oceanplexian 1y ago
> I didn't mention yet that if you flunked the same exam typically 3 times (depending on the university), you have "finally failed" (endgültig nicht bestanden), and are not allowed anymore to study the same degree course at every German university. When Europeans wonder why they are falling behind the United States both economically and technologically (Especially in the AI race), here's a perfect example of why. A culture that turns you into a some kind of a permanent failure because you failed to check a box some arbitrary number of times isn't one that produces innovation.
- tstenner 1y ago
  Of course, the next European neighbor country where you can continue your studies (even taking most of your credits with you) is often only a few hundred kilometres away.
  - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
    If you really think that a university degree course is still the right thing for you, you typically just choose another "related, but different" degree course at some university in the same country. Concerning "next European country", on the other hand, keep in mind that in this country often a different language is spoken; in particular for your daily life, you cannot assume that everybody understands English or even your native language.
- xquce 1y ago
  And when Muricans wonder why the rest of the world laughs at your simplestic greed based view of "winning", this comment is a perfect example of why. What a weird way to try and connect inter continental economics and private company valuation as a sole metric for success or achievement with test taking at a university level in Germany...
  - mebizzle 1y ago
    It's weird to correlate how the idiosyncracies of a deeply-rooted developmental system might affect the sensibilities or perspectives of the adults that said systems develop?
- fc417fc802 1y ago
  I want to agree with you. In fact I do agree with the point you're making about how policies, cultural values, and outcomes are intertwined. However you need to realize that the country you're holding up as a counterexample brands people as felons over some fairly absurd things and more generally has a remarkably dysfunctional justice system that exhibits precisely the same cultural failures that you're objecting to here.
Balgair 1y ago
> Designing a "mostly ChatGPT-proof class" is in my opinion actually rather simple: just be inspired by the German university system: Now the real question is the costs. In that, can you somehow make this system work at scale with the same profit as before? I know that the German system is a lot different than in the US, including things like tracking in 9th grade and below. But the real question is if the Universities make as much, if not more, cash. Because if the answer is 'no', then it's unlikely to be adopted. > Oh yeah, I didn't mention yet that if you flunked the same exam typically 3 times (depending on the university), you have "finally failed" (endgültig nicht bestanden), and are not allowed anymore to study the same degree course at every German university. That is an insanely awesome and clever idea. I love it. It puts real stakes there, if only perceived ones. I imagine that in the US if you flunk out of a major's classes twice or more, the number of students that continue on in that major is probably pretty low already though.
- fc417fc802 1y ago
  It's not clever, it's pointless red tape. I don't know if it's different in Germany but at least at US universities most higher level courses are part of a sequence and are thus only offered at a specific time of year. Thus failing delays your degree by a year and creates all sorts of logistical issues for the student. Doing that more than 3 times would be absurd, and anyway the sort of student who has 3 F's on his transcript within his chosen major is unlikely to be maintaining a GPA above the minimum for his program (or any program for that matter). Rather than transferring to another degree such a student is likely to be forced out of the university entirely in short order.
  - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
    > but at least at US universities most higher level courses are part of a sequence and are thus only offered at a specific time of year. Thus failing delays your degree by a year and creates all sorts of logistical issues for the student. This often also holds in Germany. And indeed if you thus fail an exam, your degree is delayed and you might have logistical issues. The moral of this: learn hard so that you don't fail exams. :-)
SkyBelow 1y ago
A complete ban feels like overkill. A cooldown period of X years would give someone time to reconsider and grow as a person. Granted, this is without consider the financial side of things.

oceanplexian 1y ago

> I didn't mention yet that if you flunked the same exam typically 3 times (depending on the university), you have "finally failed" (endgültig nicht bestanden), and are not allowed anymore to study the same degree course at every German university. When Europeans wonder why they are falling behind the United States both economically and technologically (Especially in the AI race), here's a perfect example of why. A culture that turns you into a some kind of a permanent failure because you failed to check a box some arbitrary number of times isn't one that produces innovation.

tstenner 1y ago
Of course, the next European neighbor country where you can continue your studies (even taking most of your credits with you) is often only a few hundred kilometres away.
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  If you really think that a university degree course is still the right thing for you, you typically just choose another "related, but different" degree course at some university in the same country. Concerning "next European country", on the other hand, keep in mind that in this country often a different language is spoken; in particular for your daily life, you cannot assume that everybody understands English or even your native language.
xquce 1y ago
And when Muricans wonder why the rest of the world laughs at your simplestic greed based view of "winning", this comment is a perfect example of why. What a weird way to try and connect inter continental economics and private company valuation as a sole metric for success or achievement with test taking at a university level in Germany...
- mebizzle 1y ago
  It's weird to correlate how the idiosyncracies of a deeply-rooted developmental system might affect the sensibilities or perspectives of the adults that said systems develop?
fc417fc802 1y ago
I want to agree with you. In fact I do agree with the point you're making about how policies, cultural values, and outcomes are intertwined. However you need to realize that the country you're holding up as a counterexample brands people as felons over some fairly absurd things and more generally has a remarkably dysfunctional justice system that exhibits precisely the same cultural failures that you're objecting to here.

Balgair 1y ago

> Designing a "mostly ChatGPT-proof class" is in my opinion actually rather simple: just be inspired by the German university system: Now the real question is the costs. In that, can you somehow make this system work at scale with the same profit as before? I know that the German system is a lot different than in the US, including things like tracking in 9th grade and below. But the real question is if the Universities make as much, if not more, cash. Because if the answer is 'no', then it's unlikely to be adopted. > Oh yeah, I didn't mention yet that if you flunked the same exam typically 3 times (depending on the university), you have "finally failed" (endgültig nicht bestanden), and are not allowed anymore to study the same degree course at every German university. That is an insanely awesome and clever idea. I love it. It puts real stakes there, if only perceived ones. I imagine that in the US if you flunk out of a major's classes twice or more, the number of students that continue on in that major is probably pretty low already though.

fc417fc802 1y ago
It's not clever, it's pointless red tape. I don't know if it's different in Germany but at least at US universities most higher level courses are part of a sequence and are thus only offered at a specific time of year. Thus failing delays your degree by a year and creates all sorts of logistical issues for the student. Doing that more than 3 times would be absurd, and anyway the sort of student who has 3 F's on his transcript within his chosen major is unlikely to be maintaining a GPA above the minimum for his program (or any program for that matter). Rather than transferring to another degree such a student is likely to be forced out of the university entirely in short order.
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  > but at least at US universities most higher level courses are part of a sequence and are thus only offered at a specific time of year. Thus failing delays your degree by a year and creates all sorts of logistical issues for the student. This often also holds in Germany. And indeed if you thus fail an exam, your degree is delayed and you might have logistical issues. The moral of this: learn hard so that you don't fail exams. :-)

SkyBelow 1y ago

A complete ban feels like overkill. A cooldown period of X years would give someone time to reconsider and grow as a person. Granted, this is without consider the financial side of things.