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The meaning I get from your comment is: "We're unwillingly and blindly stepping into a war, we should have done more war!" Maybe we should have done less war

The meaning I get from your comment is: "We're unwillingly and blindly stepping into a war, we should have done more war!" Maybe we should have done less war and less talking about war, don't you think? Talked more with Russia (let alone not provoke it into a confrontation for an entire decade- ask Victoria "fuck the EU" Nuland), built up clear and safe and agreed boundaries, etc.

kergonath 1y ago
> Maybe we should have done less war and less talking about war, don't you think? Who is “we”? > Talked more with Russia (let alone not provoke it into a confrontation for an entire decade- ask Victoria "fuck the EU" Nuland), built up clear and safe and agreed boundaries, etc. You realise that there were talks with Russia, including on “clear and safe and agreed boundaries”, right? Russia was a guarantor in the Minsk and Budapest memoranda. As for your point in the middle, it really is strange that smaller countries want to escape Russia’s sphere of influence, considering what they do to their neighbours in Moldova and Georgia, to name but two examples. Never mind Chechnya and now, of course, Ukraine. Russia’s behaviour is the main driving force towards NATO and the EU in Eastern Europe. You are repeating bullshit propaganda.
- throw310822 1y ago
  Can you explain this? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
  - yetihehe 1y ago
    > The clear purpose in leaking this conversation is to embarrass Washington and for audiences susceptible to Moscow's message to portray the US as interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs. THE whole argument of this one and similar "leaks" is "interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs". Ukrainians see it a little differently: "helping Ukraine escape Russia". But Russia sees it as "helping Ukraine escape Russia, thus interfering in Russia's domestic affairs". When Russians say that someone is "interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs" they mean that Ukraine is Russian and should not be touched by anyone other than Russia.
    - throw310822 1y ago
      Yes, interesting introduction since the entire article is about the proof of US meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs. Also the article: > The US says that it is working with all sides in the crisis to reach a peaceful solution, noting that "ultimately it is up to the Ukrainian people to decide their future". However this transcript suggests that the US has very clear ideas about what the outcome should be and is striving to achieve these goals > Various officials attempting to marshal the Ukrainian opposition [...] US Vice-President Joe Biden clearly being lined up to give private words of encouragement at the appropriate moment. > the US expresses frustration at the EU's efforts. Washington and Brussels have not been completely in step during the Ukraine crisis. The EU is divided and to some extent hesitant about picking a fight with Moscow. The year is 2014
      - yetihehe 1y ago
        You present every quote to look like Ukrainians didn't want to ally with west and that was ONLY because US manipulated them. I'm a Pole. I know EXACTLY why Ukrainians wanted to escape Russia's side. US wanted that too, so they made steps to make Ukrainian wishes true. How to spot Russian propaganda: They treat Ukrainians as Russians that didn't want to go to big bad west, but USA meddled and made them stray from one true Russian way, Ukrainians were only a tool with no agency whatsoever used against Russian peaceful ways.
        throw310822 1y ago
        I'm presenting the quotes exactly as they are in the leaked call and reported and commented by the BBC article. The US did scheme behind the curtains to get their favourites elected. This is meddling. It also suggests that meddling was indeed necessary, or at least helpful, to get what the US wanted- i.e. it's not simply "what the people wanted". The article even suggests that the EU simply doesn't have enough cash at hand to attract the Ukrainians, and would rather play it more on the long term- but that the US was too impatient for that. Yet more evidence of active meddling of US in Ukraine' political choices, with the purpose of attracting a country in their sphere of influence, surely not motivated by the will of the people. Now, this is not to say that in abstract Ukrainians wouldn't have preferred the West to Russia. But they have been at least in part the victim of a power play between the USA and Russia.
  - kergonath 1y ago
    What is there to explain? The US are obviously self-serving but that’s besides the point. They did not force Russia to invade their many neighbours, and nothing had happened has Yanukovych not been a massive corrupt puppet. Also, you don’t need to leak Russian openly discussing interfering with other countries, they broadcast their Great Russia fever dream openly. European countries have agency and their own security interests. We are perfectly able to understand that the US are going to take advantage of the situation as much as they can get away with. It’s still better than a new iron curtain. It is really not difficult to understand why our interests are more aligned with the US than with Russia.
- selivanovp 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - karmakurtisaani 1y ago
    Russia is a dangerous mafia state. Nothing will change that fact.
    - selivanovp 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - tomhow 1y ago
        Please avoid swipes like this in HN comments, and avoid ideological or nationalistic battle. Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - watwut 1y ago
    Nothing was aimed against Russia. They wanted to expand and destroy the nation next to them. They got ready for mass murders and invaded. There was no provocation and no threat to Russia
- tharmas 1y ago
  What about the Russian speaking Ukrainians? How do u think they felt when they tried to ban Russian? West good, Russia evil? Cmon its way more nuanced than that. And the Ukrainian speaking Ukrainian elites are no better than the Russian elites. Or the Western elites for that matter. Ukraine is a pawn in the Geopolitical power game. The people have been sacrificed on both sides. Its the morally bankrupt and corrupt Elites who should be in the firing line.
  - anelson 1y ago
    This bullshit Russian propaganda talking point needs to die. “Russian-speaking Ukrainians” are Ukrainians. I was at a birthday party in Kyiv about a month ago, the only non-Ukrainian guest. Most of the day most the guests were speaking Russian, even when cursing the Russian invaders and toasting to their deaths. These were “elites” economically speaking. The idea that there are Russian speaking Ukrainians being oppressed like Jews in Nazi Germany is idiotic and not at all based in reality. Source: I speak Russian but not Ukrainian, my wife is a Ukrainian whose native language is Russian. Every time we wake up in the night to Russian bombardment we curse the Russian invaders—in Russian!
    - tharmas 1y ago
      I never said anything about jews or even implied it. U assumed? And ran with it. And ur comment addressed nothing about how the elites in the west are using ukraine as a pawn to take down russia like Afghanistan with the soviets. Both sides have their propaganda and bullshit.
      - anelson 1y ago
        You regurgitated Russian propaganda about Russian-speaking people in Ukraine which is clearly not based on your own experience and I provided a counterpoint based on actually living in Ukraine. If you think I have misrepresented the actual experience of actual Russian-speaking Ukrainians in actual Ukraine then by all means educate me. Ukraine has a long history of resisting Russian subjugation, long before supposed CIA plots and conversations with Victoria Nuland. I wish there were some sinister plot to vanquish Russia via a proxy war in Ukraine; maybe then the Western powers would finally jock up and put an end to Russian imperialism once and for all. Sadly I’m afraid this narrative of Ukraine as pawn to destroy Russia is only a Russian propagandist’s fever dream.

kergonath 1y ago

> Maybe we should have done less war and less talking about war, don't you think? Who is “we”? > Talked more with Russia (let alone not provoke it into a confrontation for an entire decade- ask Victoria "fuck the EU" Nuland), built up clear and safe and agreed boundaries, etc. You realise that there were talks with Russia, including on “clear and safe and agreed boundaries”, right? Russia was a guarantor in the Minsk and Budapest memoranda. As for your point in the middle, it really is strange that smaller countries want to escape Russia’s sphere of influence, considering what they do to their neighbours in Moldova and Georgia, to name but two examples. Never mind Chechnya and now, of course, Ukraine. Russia’s behaviour is the main driving force towards NATO and the EU in Eastern Europe. You are repeating bullshit propaganda.

throw310822 1y ago
Can you explain this? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
- yetihehe 1y ago
  > The clear purpose in leaking this conversation is to embarrass Washington and for audiences susceptible to Moscow's message to portray the US as interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs. THE whole argument of this one and similar "leaks" is "interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs". Ukrainians see it a little differently: "helping Ukraine escape Russia". But Russia sees it as "helping Ukraine escape Russia, thus interfering in Russia's domestic affairs". When Russians say that someone is "interfering in Ukraine's domestic affairs" they mean that Ukraine is Russian and should not be touched by anyone other than Russia.
  - throw310822 1y ago
    Yes, interesting introduction since the entire article is about the proof of US meddling in Ukraine's internal affairs. Also the article: > The US says that it is working with all sides in the crisis to reach a peaceful solution, noting that "ultimately it is up to the Ukrainian people to decide their future". However this transcript suggests that the US has very clear ideas about what the outcome should be and is striving to achieve these goals > Various officials attempting to marshal the Ukrainian opposition [...] US Vice-President Joe Biden clearly being lined up to give private words of encouragement at the appropriate moment. > the US expresses frustration at the EU's efforts. Washington and Brussels have not been completely in step during the Ukraine crisis. The EU is divided and to some extent hesitant about picking a fight with Moscow. The year is 2014
    - yetihehe 1y ago
      You present every quote to look like Ukrainians didn't want to ally with west and that was ONLY because US manipulated them. I'm a Pole. I know EXACTLY why Ukrainians wanted to escape Russia's side. US wanted that too, so they made steps to make Ukrainian wishes true. How to spot Russian propaganda: They treat Ukrainians as Russians that didn't want to go to big bad west, but USA meddled and made them stray from one true Russian way, Ukrainians were only a tool with no agency whatsoever used against Russian peaceful ways.
      - throw310822 1y ago
        I'm presenting the quotes exactly as they are in the leaked call and reported and commented by the BBC article. The US did scheme behind the curtains to get their favourites elected. This is meddling. It also suggests that meddling was indeed necessary, or at least helpful, to get what the US wanted- i.e. it's not simply "what the people wanted". The article even suggests that the EU simply doesn't have enough cash at hand to attract the Ukrainians, and would rather play it more on the long term- but that the US was too impatient for that. Yet more evidence of active meddling of US in Ukraine' political choices, with the purpose of attracting a country in their sphere of influence, surely not motivated by the will of the people. Now, this is not to say that in abstract Ukrainians wouldn't have preferred the West to Russia. But they have been at least in part the victim of a power play between the USA and Russia.
- kergonath 1y ago
  What is there to explain? The US are obviously self-serving but that’s besides the point. They did not force Russia to invade their many neighbours, and nothing had happened has Yanukovych not been a massive corrupt puppet. Also, you don’t need to leak Russian openly discussing interfering with other countries, they broadcast their Great Russia fever dream openly. European countries have agency and their own security interests. We are perfectly able to understand that the US are going to take advantage of the situation as much as they can get away with. It’s still better than a new iron curtain. It is really not difficult to understand why our interests are more aligned with the US than with Russia.
selivanovp 1y ago
[flagged]
- karmakurtisaani 1y ago
  Russia is a dangerous mafia state. Nothing will change that fact.
  - selivanovp 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - tomhow 1y ago
      Please avoid swipes like this in HN comments, and avoid ideological or nationalistic battle. Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community. Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- watwut 1y ago
  Nothing was aimed against Russia. They wanted to expand and destroy the nation next to them. They got ready for mass murders and invaded. There was no provocation and no threat to Russia
tharmas 1y ago
What about the Russian speaking Ukrainians? How do u think they felt when they tried to ban Russian? West good, Russia evil? Cmon its way more nuanced than that. And the Ukrainian speaking Ukrainian elites are no better than the Russian elites. Or the Western elites for that matter. Ukraine is a pawn in the Geopolitical power game. The people have been sacrificed on both sides. Its the morally bankrupt and corrupt Elites who should be in the firing line.
- anelson 1y ago
  This bullshit Russian propaganda talking point needs to die. “Russian-speaking Ukrainians” are Ukrainians. I was at a birthday party in Kyiv about a month ago, the only non-Ukrainian guest. Most of the day most the guests were speaking Russian, even when cursing the Russian invaders and toasting to their deaths. These were “elites” economically speaking. The idea that there are Russian speaking Ukrainians being oppressed like Jews in Nazi Germany is idiotic and not at all based in reality. Source: I speak Russian but not Ukrainian, my wife is a Ukrainian whose native language is Russian. Every time we wake up in the night to Russian bombardment we curse the Russian invaders—in Russian!
  - tharmas 1y ago
    I never said anything about jews or even implied it. U assumed? And ran with it. And ur comment addressed nothing about how the elites in the west are using ukraine as a pawn to take down russia like Afghanistan with the soviets. Both sides have their propaganda and bullshit.
    - anelson 1y ago
      You regurgitated Russian propaganda about Russian-speaking people in Ukraine which is clearly not based on your own experience and I provided a counterpoint based on actually living in Ukraine. If you think I have misrepresented the actual experience of actual Russian-speaking Ukrainians in actual Ukraine then by all means educate me. Ukraine has a long history of resisting Russian subjugation, long before supposed CIA plots and conversations with Victoria Nuland. I wish there were some sinister plot to vanquish Russia via a proxy war in Ukraine; maybe then the Western powers would finally jock up and put an end to Russian imperialism once and for all. Sadly I’m afraid this narrative of Ukraine as pawn to destroy Russia is only a Russian propagandist’s fever dream.