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The Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect (1994)
- itchyjunk 1y agoGot recommended this by George Hotz somewhere and I remember enjoying this.
- grepexdev 1y agoSame! When he was last on the Lex Fridman podcast.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 1y agoLocalroger, where did you end up once k5 went to shit? I still miss the place.
- okwhateverdude 1y agoReally good times on k5 all those many moons ago. It is weird to consider how ephemeral these internet communities are in the end.
- Nursie 1y agoNO YUO. I had fun there but overall I'm not sad it's gone. A weirdly utopian idea that went very sour.
- justlikereddit 1y agoRead it. Enjoyed it. But the hard takeoff patronizing AI plot trope is done to death that I'd probably hate it if re-read it.
- okwhateverdude 1y agoThis was some out there singularity fiction back in the day with some really vivid imagery including being raped by a zombie, skinning the protagonist alive and dumping a mound of fire ants on them, and some incest. I re-read this occasionally and still enjoy reading it if only because it feels truthy for how various shades of humanity would deal with an immortality giving, reality altering, techno-god. The shock value of various scenes mimics the darker corners of the internet and does a good job exploring the dichotomy of behavior on and off the internet in the guise of dealing with the reality foisted upon the characters. If you've not read it, and aren't bothered by some extreme imagery, I definitely recommend.
- pavel_lishin 1y agoI suggest removing the explicit spoilers about what happens in the book. Some of the shock value comes from experiencing those scenes for the first time. But yeah. It's a hella graphic and violent story.
- danpalmer 1y agoGood book, worth a read, but for me the final chapter ruined the book to a large extent. Chapters 1..n-1 are about the rise of a super intelligence and dealing with human life post being subsumed into the intelligence. It’s a bit odd in places, but basically interesting, and a reasonable take on what could happen if a runaway intelligence is created. The last chapter however goes completely off the rails. It has little to do with the rest of the book, and comes off as if it were poorly written fan fiction based on the authors fantasies. I recommend skipping it, it’s not necessary to the book and I think the story would have been stronger finishing without it.
- Jordan-117 1y agoOne of my most problematic faves. It's quite well-written, and the way the singularity unfolds is compellingly imagined. It's one of the few pieces of fiction I've ever seen that really grapples with the idea of paradise and what meaning life can have when all obstacles are removed. The streaks of graphic violence, though hard to stomach, serve to underscore this theme in a provocative way. And Caroline is fantastic. That last chapter, though. It's so bizarre, so fetishistic, so needlessly squicky, that it just about ruins everything that came before. IMHO, it would be better if it just ended at the cliffhanger in the penultimate chapter. That said, I'd love to read the long-awaited sequel (The Transmigration of Prime Intellect). I've also heard rumblings of a movie deal, though one likely consigned to either development hell or a rewrite that leaves it an adaptation in name only.
- altairprime 1y agoSecond this. The main story remains relevant to this day. I remember clearly where I was when I read it for the first time in 2001. I read most of it every ten years or so. However. The last chapter is explicit in a way that is unnecessary and does not contribute to the story. It may be illegal in some jurisdictions, depending on how strict the laws are. There are plausible reasons to select the path it takes but the explicit detail incorporated is awful, corrosive, and is solely responsible for why I can’t recommend the story to anyone. I should mirror the story and truncate the final chapter so I can share it with people.
- makerofthings 1y agoI read this book and liked it, but I don't remember anything really bad about the last chapter and having a quick scan of the linked page above, I don't see anything really out there. What am I missing?
- Jordan-117 1y agoFairly graphic descriptions of very underage father-daughter sex, so clumsily written and out of character it's like bad NSFW fan fiction.
- russnes 1y agoone of my favorite books, great combination of philosophy and adventure. I especially like what reminds me of the vibe I would get from other sci fi and video games from America in the 90s. I also enjoyed his short story in the same universe "A Casino Odyssey in Cyberspace"
- throwanem 1y agoReady Player One is also one of the ones you're meant to outgrow. I wouldn't wait to start, I think.
- cognomano 1y agoI can't read it on iPhone: the Reader doesn't work and neither the increasing the font size. Sorry!
- throwanem 1y agoSafari reader mode works fine for me on an iPhone 13 mini, but there are also innumerable epub and PDF versions; this work has been popular among AI fantasist nerds for about twenty-five years. For quite closely similar reasons, you are not missing all that much. It's seeing a fad among a generation previously ignorant, probably because of boosterism on the part of people my age who never quite figured out this is one of the ones you outgrow.
- altairprime 1y agoIt used to be on Kindle store, if that helps any. Might still be!
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- randomcarbloke 1y agoI must confess I prefer Passages in the Void
- throwanem 1y agoI hadn't bothered to see if he developed his thinking further! Is there a well-formatted copy anywhere? All I can find is a PDF prepared by an incompetent.
- randomcarbloke 1y agoNot portably, but on https://localroger.com/ https://localroger.com/ under "Passages in the Void" it is available in plaintext, back in the day I read it on kuro5hin.
- nowittyusername 1y agoI loved this thing when I read it. Still do. Very interesting take on the "pain Olympics" especially. Overall just the setting tone and characters seemed creative at the time, serial killer friend and all that jazz...
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- lynx97 1y agoWell, while the concept of "what happens if we get rid of samsara" is deeply interesting, the dom/sub nature of this story makes it kind of cheap. Its a sadists dream. A bored female submitting herself for the sake of excitment. Its kind of telling this got upvoted so much.
- white_dragon88 1y ago[dead]
- throwanem 1y agoSomething here is telling, but not about the story.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- shdh 1y agoOne of the best. Free online. Also recommend Accelerando by Charles Stross.
- throwanem 1y agoBoth are worth reading. Neither exceeds the mediocre.
- white_dragon88 1y ago[dead]
- ferguess_k 1y agoI read the book and enjoyed most of it. I don't like the last part, where the author dived into the mindset of "everything will be good without tech". I mean, tech is neutral, so it depends on how humans use it. But getting rid of all tech is an extreme. I'd like to PAUSE research on AI before humans reach a better society, because it has the potential to impact all workers, but that's pretty much it.
- mullingitover 1y ago> I'd like to PAUSE research on AI before humans reach a better society In light of recent events I think it's unsafe to assume that society will be better in the future.
- ferguess_k 1y agoI agree, the more reason to pause AI research.
- benji-york 1y agoHaving read this book in the late '90s, I've though of it at least monthly since then. The themes are truly epic, but the human behaviors described (sometimes in great detail) are horrendous.
- bytter 1y agoWhile many discussions here focus on the novel’s explicit content and narrative choices, I believe it’s equally important to examine its philosophical portrayal of artificial intelligence and post-humanism. In my view (I wrote about it back in 2014, in my [“Review of Metamorphosis of Prime Intellect”](https://hugosereno.com/blog/2014/12/08/review-of-metamorphosis-of-prime-intellect/ https://hugosereno.com/blog/2014/12/08/review-of-metamorphos...)), the novel presents a deterministic and somewhat pessimistic vision of AI, where the superintelligent entity, Prime Intellect, rigidly adheres to pre-programmed laws, leading to unintended and often disturbing consequences for humanity. This depiction raises questions about the limitations of encoding human ethics into AI and the potential pitfalls of such an approach. And although it resonates with recent AI culture, it also fails to capture how we’ve learned that it’s almost next to impossible to align an AI to any kind of ethics; be it good or bad, according to human definitions (which, after reading Simon Blackburn’s work, it seems to me like a random, ad-hoc mess of brittle rules). Fundamentally, this novel was written by a fascinating author that is human. And maybe his reflection on the human nature is mirrored in the very narrative of his work. I’m not alone in this perspective. Among others: 1. Michael Uhall, in his essay “Metaphysical Boredom in the Empire of Desire,” argues that MoPI is less about technological speculation and more about existential questions central to post-history. He suggests that the narrative explores whether humanity can find meaning without the conflicts and constraints that define finite existence. Uhall posits that the novel portrays a world where, in the absence of pain and death, humans become obsessed with these very concepts, highlighting a failure to imagine intelligence beyond human limitations. 2. Susan Schneider, while not commenting on MoPI directly, has expressed concerns about simplistic portrayals of artificial intelligence in fiction. In her work, she emphasizes the importance of understanding the philosophical implications of AI, cautioning against narratives that depict AI as either wholly benevolent or malevolent without nuance. This perspective resonates with my own critique of MoPI’s depiction of AI as fundamentally flawed and self-centered. 3. Hubert Dreyfus, known for his critique of artificial intelligence, argued that human intelligence and expertise rely on unconscious processes that cannot be replicated by formal rules or algorithms. While Dreyfus did not specifically address MoPI, his skepticism about the capabilities of AI aligns with critiques of the novel’s portrayal of a superintelligent AI that fails to transcend human flaws. 4. Daniel Dennett has warned against anthropomorphizing AI systems, suggesting that attributing human-like understanding to machines can be misleading. Although Dennett’s work does not directly critique MoPI, his cautionary stance on interpreting AI behavior supports concerns about oversimplified representations of AI in literature. I invite people to think about this novel through the lens of recent “alignment” research. The paperclip metaphor is alluring because of its reduction ad absurdum. But, simultaneously, it’s devoid of any kind of nuance (the world seems to care less about nuance). We need this nuance back.
- mullingitover 1y agoThat story has two of the most wickedly evil protagonists ever. They selfishly wiped out all of humanity (all bajillion trillion of them) because they didn't like how things were going. I say evil, with my whole chest, because their behavior is a big hallmark of evil: "I'm absolutely right about this, and I'm going to make a decision that kills vast numbers of human beings because I know I'm right and your deaths are a sacrifice I'm willing to make."
- Jordan-117 1y agoBut in an arguably righteous way, which makes it even more challenging. (Specifically, the idea that humanity was essentially meaningless and dead already due to the lack of any real challenges or goals, as well as the desire to free the hundreds of alien worlds that had been frozen by PI.)
- mullingitover 1y ago> Specifically, the idea that humanity was essentially meaningless and dead already due to the lack of any real challenges or goals This is what I'm talking about though, this was wholly decided by the protagonists. They were certain that the lives of everyone else were worthless. The people who they were exterminating didn't get any input in the decision. This is a common feature among humanity's most absolutely vile monsters.
- lawrenceyan 1y agoI'll be completely honest and say that I only ever remember reading the first chapter, and never actually finished this story. But the title sounds really cool.
- DontchaKnowit 1y agoI tried to read this and immediately eye rolled at the gratuitous sexual violence that starts on like page 5. Trashy book, imo. And reads like it was written by a middle schooler. Maybe if you slog through the bad prose and edgy sex scenes theres something good, but wasnt worth it to me.
- AStrangeMorrow 1y agoYeah I really liked that book, but honestly almost dropped it after the first chapter for that very reason. I get the point that is being made with all this gratuitous violence in the context of the whole book, but still
- mousethatroared 1y agoTerrible writing at times, gratuitously sexual. More than Fred's I feel like I know what the authors sick fantasies are. But the idea is interesting an omnipotent Being that forces you enjoy immortality with it is a tyrant.
- UltraSane 1y agoEveryone freaks out about the incest at the end but I hate this story because the main character is given eternal life in paradise and spends the whole story trying to destroy it.
- mousethatroared 1y agoIt's not paradise, it's hell. The book also addresses this by pointing out that most folks are happy with their overlord, some even worship it. The point of the book is to prove it is hell.
- UltraSane 1y ago"It's not paradise, it's hell." This is an absolutely insane take. Hell is what happens after they destroy Prime Intellect.
- mousethatroared 1y agoWhat's hell about the last chapter? (Other than the writing and the author's transparently obvious sexual preferences?) Death? Hunger? Pain? That's small stuff. It is not Hell. Hell is loathing your existence forever. The end point of every human is condemned to in that novel. Let me ask you a question (my answers in parentheses): Do you fear death (not Death itself, but yes I do)? What about it (bring unprepared, the pain of the process, fear of cowardice)?
- UltraSane 1y agoIt is fine that the main character hated paradise because she was a selfish moron. But she destroyed paradise for everyone else making her one of the most evil and selfish characters in all of fiction.
- fuzo 1y agoWhy didn't Caroline talk to her family again? And instead hooked up with serial killers and death enthusiasts. I've read this a couple of times over the years and never got that.
- mousethatroared 1y agoThey abandoned her to Anna. Basically when she gets out of her hospital bed she seeks out Anna and not her family because she'd been her only companion. Then it turns out Anna had harmed her terribly. Also, I think the point is well argued that things like familial bonds don't mean very much contrasted to eternity.
- DiabloD3 1y agoI have not read this for like 20 years. It's still as good and as absolutely batshit as I remember. A lot of commenters here talk about how its "problematic" or "squick", but that's mostly the point: this isn't a story about the Singularity, even though the PI is a main character in the cast, instead, it is a story about what happens to morality if death is no longer achievable from the perspective of a character that takes it to very extreme. If you're uncomfortable with the story, fundamentally, you're uncomfortable with what humans can do/could do/have done with insufficient moral constructs in place. Which... ultimately is the correct response, I guess? The story doesn't hold any punches, it doesn't hold your hand, how you feel about after you finish it is up to you.
- Suppafly 1y agoI remember having read this forever ago, but for the life of me can't remember anything about it. The author was big on K5, which is apparently not a site anymore.
- yoko888 1y ago[dead]