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Prepare your ship of Theseus arguments now As soon as I saw the headline, I knew this HN cliché would be one of the first comments. Your body has replaced all

Prepare your ship of Theseus arguments now As soon as I saw the headline, I knew this HN cliché would be one of the first comments. Your body has replaced all of its cells several times already in your lifetime. Are you not the same person?

madaxe_again 1y ago
Living beings are patterns of energy and information that operate continuously - the matter is not the stuff - hence when you die, you die. With a clock - the matter arguably is the stuff, as you can stop and start it at will.
- lazide 1y ago
  If you lose consciousness (sleep, or trauma) and then awake - are you the same person before and after? How can you know?
praptak 1y ago
> Are you not the same person? If you want to prevent a philosophical debate, that's a very risky question to ask :)
- nosianu 1y ago
  There is not much to discuss. It's not like the universe forces you to use one particular definition for some word. You can decide to use whichever you want for "same person", and somebody else may use another one. There is no higher power to make one of you more right. Human power helps (if you control the books and the lesson plans and the grading of tests, you kind of win).
krisoft 1y ago
> Your body has replaced all of its cells several times already in your lifetime. Are you not the same person? That is the Ship of Theseus argument using other words.
dekhn 1y ago
Not all the cells in the body are replaced in your lifespan. But yes, identity is not specific to the constituents of the original object if there is a continuum of changes.
nosianu 1y ago
Okay... so I'm going to do some nitpicking on the non-essential fringes of the argument if that's okay? > Your body has replaced all of its cells several times already in your lifetime Not true. Cells like neurons, heart cells, skeletal muscle cells are permanent (with minor caveats). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_cell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_cell
- lukan 1y ago
  Thank you! I always doubted that claim, but never looked into it.
  - b112 1y ago
    You can take a flatworm, cut it in half, subject it to an electric field so it grows two heads. Later, without the external field, you can cut it in half and both halfs will grow a second head. It's not genetic expression, but the electric field of the flatworm that has changed permanently and is directing cell growth. So if your entire body has its own field, that retains its uniqueness, and can even cause cell specialization what then? https://www.newscientist.com/article/2132148-bioelectric-tweak-makes-flatworms-grow-a-head-instead-of-a-tail/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2132148-bioelectric-twe... “A totally normal-looking worm with a normal gene expression and stem cell distribution can in fact be harbouring a [body plan] that’s quite different,” says Levin. “That information is stored in a bioelectric pattern – it’s not in the distribution of tissues or stem cells, it’s electrical.”
    - lukan 1y ago
      That is worth a submission and a HN thread for itself I think, thank you.
  - adastra22 1y ago
    But at the same time, all the atoms of the cells in your body (except for bones) have been entirely recycled.
- thrawa8387336 1y ago

madaxe_again 1y ago

Living beings are patterns of energy and information that operate continuously - the matter is not the stuff - hence when you die, you die. With a clock - the matter arguably is the stuff, as you can stop and start it at will.

lazide 1y ago
If you lose consciousness (sleep, or trauma) and then awake - are you the same person before and after? How can you know?

praptak 1y ago

> Are you not the same person? If you want to prevent a philosophical debate, that's a very risky question to ask :)

nosianu 1y ago
There is not much to discuss. It's not like the universe forces you to use one particular definition for some word. You can decide to use whichever you want for "same person", and somebody else may use another one. There is no higher power to make one of you more right. Human power helps (if you control the books and the lesson plans and the grading of tests, you kind of win).

krisoft 1y ago

> Your body has replaced all of its cells several times already in your lifetime. Are you not the same person? That is the Ship of Theseus argument using other words.

dekhn 1y ago

Not all the cells in the body are replaced in your lifespan. But yes, identity is not specific to the constituents of the original object if there is a continuum of changes.

nosianu 1y ago

Okay... so I'm going to do some nitpicking on the non-essential fringes of the argument if that's okay? > Your body has replaced all of its cells several times already in your lifetime Not true. Cells like neurons, heart cells, skeletal muscle cells are permanent (with minor caveats). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_cell https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_cell

lukan 1y ago
Thank you! I always doubted that claim, but never looked into it.
- b112 1y ago
  You can take a flatworm, cut it in half, subject it to an electric field so it grows two heads. Later, without the external field, you can cut it in half and both halfs will grow a second head. It's not genetic expression, but the electric field of the flatworm that has changed permanently and is directing cell growth. So if your entire body has its own field, that retains its uniqueness, and can even cause cell specialization what then? https://www.newscientist.com/article/2132148-bioelectric-tweak-makes-flatworms-grow-a-head-instead-of-a-tail/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/2132148-bioelectric-twe... “A totally normal-looking worm with a normal gene expression and stem cell distribution can in fact be harbouring a [body plan] that’s quite different,” says Levin. “That information is stored in a bioelectric pattern – it’s not in the distribution of tissues or stem cells, it’s electrical.”
  - lukan 1y ago
    That is worth a submission and a HN thread for itself I think, thank you.
- adastra22 1y ago
  But at the same time, all the atoms of the cells in your body (except for bones) have been entirely recycled.
thrawa8387336 1y ago