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Considering how far behind the European Union is in the digital services industry, and considering the need to decouple from the American circus, a strategic mo

Considering how far behind the European Union is in the digital services industry, and considering the need to decouple from the American circus, a strategic move towards preying on digital services through tariffs or taxes is a logical option.

PicassoCTs 1y ago
Western europe- eastern europe is not afflicted by this particular malaise. How about we talk openly about it- there is a limited number of perfectly good heads- and fabrication industries and service industries are in systemic competition on that limited pool. And they create their own support environment ("bloated universities") where the service wins and destroy the competition.
- liotier 1y ago
  > Western europe- eastern europe is not afflicted by this particular malaise. The lure of USA protection lingers in Eastern Europe - some just haven't realized the new reality yet.
  - PicassoCTs 1y ago
    Eastern europe has software nailed down. Poland, chechoslvovakia, the baltics- they are naturals in this.
    - quonn 1y ago
      As if western europe wouldn't have the skills. Eastern Europe has not relevant international software industry outside of JetBrains. Same as western europe which at least has SAP and Spotify.
      - brodo 1y ago
        CD Project Red
      - PicassoCTs 1y ago
        Forgot to subtract the nordics from western europe. My bad.
    - closewith 1y ago
      Why aren't they meaningfully competing with Ireland as centres for software, if that's the case? Obviously Czechoslovakia has a great excuse, not having existed for 32 years, but neither Czechia nor Slovakia come close to Ireland, either is terms of Euro-value or number of software jobs. Ireland's software exports dwarf Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, and the Baltics combined. That's ignoring the inflated GDP figures from international IP revenue tax-dodging.
      - saubeidl 1y ago
        Ireland is a tax haven that parasitically deprives the rest of the EU of tax revenue. It's not a viable model to emulate and would cause a race to the bottom, at the expense of the public and to the benefit of the modern day robber barons.
        closewith 1y ago
        > Ireland is a tax haven that parasitically deprives the rest of the EU of tax revenue. The days of the Double Irish are long gone and comparing effective tax rates paints a very different story, so this is 5 years out of date in as true as it ever was. Even excluding the EU IP revenue of multinationals with EMEA HQs in Ireland, real software development revenue is over double Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, and the Baltics combined.
        pyrale 1y ago
        Are you asserting that 5 years of no specific imbalance is long enough to offset decades of software ecosystem building driven by tax cuts?
        closewith 1y ago
        Not by tax cuts, by tax policy. One which the bloc was happy to enable when it wanted to pass the Lisbon treaty. But that's irrelevant, as ghost HQs can avail of Ireland's tax regime with minimal employees. Ireland's extremely educated workforce and exceptionally stable and peaceful governance along with business friendly economic climate are the reason Ireland is a software powerhouse, independent of tax regime (which is not particularly conducive to large employers).
    - m4rtink 1y ago
      Ehm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia
    - btheunissen 1y ago
      I very much agree from contractors I’ve worked with from Poland and the like, but the same areas don’t produce a lot of international software companies. Lack of capital for venture businesses in those regions? Hard to pin down.
- dzhiurgis 1y ago
  I have personal anecdote how bonkers eastern european digital system is. My child was born in NZ and in order to gain dual citizenship you need to submit form in Lithuanian. To access e-gov you used to have so many cool methods - most popular is your bank (makes sense since they’d have highest stakes and worked out security), then your local SIM card finally your ID card. Well first ones are off the table since I was away for so long. I managed to source a usb smart card reader. Even somehow more luckily find working software. By shred of luck my card is not expired (card is valid for 10years, but digital certificates on chip for 18 months lol). I’m in. The digital form is ok, albeit designed before mobile era so definitely won’t work in mobile screen. Fine. Submit it. Two weeks later I get a response (clearly my form was just dumped as an email) that in fact I need to meet face to face to ID me and my child… Fortunately thru personal connections I was able to do so via video call. Contrast that to NZ. In 10 years here I didn’t get to meet beurocrat even once. I’ve mailed a form and received passport by post. Low tech but sublime experience.
DaSHacka 1y ago
So, tarrifs are understandable when countries in Europe want to bolster local industries and decrease reliance on foreign countries, but not when the US does the same?
- saubeidl 1y ago
  Tarrifs are on physical goods, by definition.
  - DaSHacka 1y ago
    Did you intend to reply to GP? I dont believe anything in my comment stated the contrary.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      You were complaining about a perceived double standard with this vs US tariffs. I pointed out this wouldn't be tariffs since it's not on physical goods, hence the comparison you made doesn't really make sense.
      - DaSHacka 1y ago
        GP was the one who specifically mentioned "some kind of tarrif on digital services", I merely responded in kind. The technicalities of whether it's "tax" or "tariff" is irrelevant, in the context they both bring about the same desired outcome. I skipped right past it because I understood what GP was getting at, and saw no need to get pedantic over the wording.
- SkiFire13 1y ago
  The US definitely did not do the same.
- Vilian 1y ago
  If it was made in a logical and consise way, yes, not if it's made by, what looked like, trump high on meth
jillesvangurp 1y ago
For modern digital service usage, I wouldn't necessarily look at the US as a leader. It's bureaucracy rivals that of big countries in the EU. And a lot of that is still based on form filling. Germany is definitely a basket case on that front (I live there). But I wouldn't rank the US much higher. I've lived in Finland and Sweden as well, which are much better and more efficient. And I'm from the Netherlands, which has modernized quite a bit unlike Germany. Places like California aren't necessarily a lot better and possibly worse in some areas. I've never lived there but I've talked to plenty of people that spent some time there. Also, if you look at manufacturing, Europe still provides some essential things. SAP, a German company, is a global market leader in ERP and related software. Companies like Tesla buy high their high tech machines from Germany. And the machines that make the chips that are power the AI revolution are made by ASML, headquartered in the EU. US manufacturing is a lot weaker than EU manufacturing at this point. So, I don't think it is that black and white and there are a lot of things in the US that aren't necessarily very modern or nice. And for taxation, there's the argument to be made that there are an awful lot of US companies with extreme valuation rivaling the GDP of most EU countries that seem to be very good at dodging taxes in the EU despite getting a lot of their revenue there. There's a lot of talk about trade imbalances lately, and this has been an obvious candidate for balancing. So, I don't think this is such a strange thing to do for the EU to be publicly musing doing something about that in light of all the tariffs that Trump is threatening with currently. Which is of course what this is all about.

PicassoCTs 1y ago

Western europe- eastern europe is not afflicted by this particular malaise. How about we talk openly about it- there is a limited number of perfectly good heads- and fabrication industries and service industries are in systemic competition on that limited pool. And they create their own support environment ("bloated universities") where the service wins and destroy the competition.

liotier 1y ago
> Western europe- eastern europe is not afflicted by this particular malaise. The lure of USA protection lingers in Eastern Europe - some just haven't realized the new reality yet.
- PicassoCTs 1y ago
  Eastern europe has software nailed down. Poland, chechoslvovakia, the baltics- they are naturals in this.
  - quonn 1y ago
    As if western europe wouldn't have the skills. Eastern Europe has not relevant international software industry outside of JetBrains. Same as western europe which at least has SAP and Spotify.
    - brodo 1y ago
      CD Project Red
    - PicassoCTs 1y ago
      Forgot to subtract the nordics from western europe. My bad.
  - closewith 1y ago
    Why aren't they meaningfully competing with Ireland as centres for software, if that's the case? Obviously Czechoslovakia has a great excuse, not having existed for 32 years, but neither Czechia nor Slovakia come close to Ireland, either is terms of Euro-value or number of software jobs. Ireland's software exports dwarf Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, and the Baltics combined. That's ignoring the inflated GDP figures from international IP revenue tax-dodging.
    - saubeidl 1y ago
      Ireland is a tax haven that parasitically deprives the rest of the EU of tax revenue. It's not a viable model to emulate and would cause a race to the bottom, at the expense of the public and to the benefit of the modern day robber barons.
      - closewith 1y ago
        > Ireland is a tax haven that parasitically deprives the rest of the EU of tax revenue. The days of the Double Irish are long gone and comparing effective tax rates paints a very different story, so this is 5 years out of date in as true as it ever was. Even excluding the EU IP revenue of multinationals with EMEA HQs in Ireland, real software development revenue is over double Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, and the Baltics combined.
        pyrale 1y ago
        Are you asserting that 5 years of no specific imbalance is long enough to offset decades of software ecosystem building driven by tax cuts?
        closewith 1y ago
        Not by tax cuts, by tax policy. One which the bloc was happy to enable when it wanted to pass the Lisbon treaty. But that's irrelevant, as ghost HQs can avail of Ireland's tax regime with minimal employees. Ireland's extremely educated workforce and exceptionally stable and peaceful governance along with business friendly economic climate are the reason Ireland is a software powerhouse, independent of tax regime (which is not particularly conducive to large employers).
  - m4rtink 1y ago
    Ehm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia
  - btheunissen 1y ago
    I very much agree from contractors I’ve worked with from Poland and the like, but the same areas don’t produce a lot of international software companies. Lack of capital for venture businesses in those regions? Hard to pin down.
dzhiurgis 1y ago
I have personal anecdote how bonkers eastern european digital system is. My child was born in NZ and in order to gain dual citizenship you need to submit form in Lithuanian. To access e-gov you used to have so many cool methods - most popular is your bank (makes sense since they’d have highest stakes and worked out security), then your local SIM card finally your ID card. Well first ones are off the table since I was away for so long. I managed to source a usb smart card reader. Even somehow more luckily find working software. By shred of luck my card is not expired (card is valid for 10years, but digital certificates on chip for 18 months lol). I’m in. The digital form is ok, albeit designed before mobile era so definitely won’t work in mobile screen. Fine. Submit it. Two weeks later I get a response (clearly my form was just dumped as an email) that in fact I need to meet face to face to ID me and my child… Fortunately thru personal connections I was able to do so via video call. Contrast that to NZ. In 10 years here I didn’t get to meet beurocrat even once. I’ve mailed a form and received passport by post. Low tech but sublime experience.

DaSHacka 1y ago

So, tarrifs are understandable when countries in Europe want to bolster local industries and decrease reliance on foreign countries, but not when the US does the same?

saubeidl 1y ago
Tarrifs are on physical goods, by definition.
- DaSHacka 1y ago
  Did you intend to reply to GP? I dont believe anything in my comment stated the contrary.
  - saubeidl 1y ago
    You were complaining about a perceived double standard with this vs US tariffs. I pointed out this wouldn't be tariffs since it's not on physical goods, hence the comparison you made doesn't really make sense.
    - DaSHacka 1y ago
      GP was the one who specifically mentioned "some kind of tarrif on digital services", I merely responded in kind. The technicalities of whether it's "tax" or "tariff" is irrelevant, in the context they both bring about the same desired outcome. I skipped right past it because I understood what GP was getting at, and saw no need to get pedantic over the wording.
SkiFire13 1y ago
The US definitely did not do the same.
Vilian 1y ago
If it was made in a logical and consise way, yes, not if it's made by, what looked like, trump high on meth

jillesvangurp 1y ago

For modern digital service usage, I wouldn't necessarily look at the US as a leader. It's bureaucracy rivals that of big countries in the EU. And a lot of that is still based on form filling. Germany is definitely a basket case on that front (I live there). But I wouldn't rank the US much higher. I've lived in Finland and Sweden as well, which are much better and more efficient. And I'm from the Netherlands, which has modernized quite a bit unlike Germany. Places like California aren't necessarily a lot better and possibly worse in some areas. I've never lived there but I've talked to plenty of people that spent some time there. Also, if you look at manufacturing, Europe still provides some essential things. SAP, a German company, is a global market leader in ERP and related software. Companies like Tesla buy high their high tech machines from Germany. And the machines that make the chips that are power the AI revolution are made by ASML, headquartered in the EU. US manufacturing is a lot weaker than EU manufacturing at this point. So, I don't think it is that black and white and there are a lot of things in the US that aren't necessarily very modern or nice. And for taxation, there's the argument to be made that there are an awful lot of US companies with extreme valuation rivaling the GDP of most EU countries that seem to be very good at dodging taxes in the EU despite getting a lot of their revenue there. There's a lot of talk about trade imbalances lately, and this has been an obvious candidate for balancing. So, I don't think this is such a strange thing to do for the EU to be publicly musing doing something about that in light of all the tariffs that Trump is threatening with currently. Which is of course what this is all about.