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It’s not always location-agnostic, but you’re more likely to hear about location-agnostic efforts because they have further reach. For instance Men’s Sheds are
by JimDabell 1y ago
It’s not always location-agnostic, but you’re more likely to hear about location-agnostic efforts because they have further reach.
For instance Men’s Sheds are a local effort with a thousand locations in the UK:
> Men’s Sheds encourage people to come together to make, repair and repurpose, supporting projects in their local communities. Improving wellbeing, reducing loneliness and combatting social isolation.
> Research gathered by the UKMSA Health and Wellbeing Survey, 2023, suggests 96% of Men’s Shed attendees feel less lonely since joining a Shed.
— https://menssheds.org.uk https://menssheds.org.uk
Unfortunately, sometimes you get things like this happening:
> 'We put the pressure on to join Men in Sheds'
> The 74-year-old added: "Eventually they let us in, just one morning, eventually it became all the time, and now it's 50% women, and we absolutely love it."
> When the women were allowed into the workshop, members decided to keep a quiet room with a model railway display in it, just for men.
> "We [the men] escape now and again [to the quiet room] and have a chat and weigh things up."
— https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg5qd9l3094o https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cg5qd9l3094o
- jamesdeluk 1y agoWhy didn't they start Women's Sheds?
- subscribed 1y agoOh, but why if they're having a functional clubs already? I feel like men only spaces in the UK are frowned upon (see Garrick club narration). No matter the reason, the only way single sex spaces work here is women only.
- jl6 1y agoIn UK law, it is generally considered sex discrimination to exclude someone on the basis of their sex, unless that exclusion is a “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”. It’s fairly well understood that women have sex-based needs that justify this aim, but very rarely recognized that men might have such needs too. Maybe this is one of them. The fear will always be that male-only spaces will become centers of power and decision-making that women are excluded from. That’s where the private London clubs sit. Doesn’t seem as likely to happen in a shed, but who knows?
- King-Aaron 1y agoGenerally speaking women are more than welcome at Mens Sheds (In Australia, at least). The ratio of men to women that enjoy sanding wood and tinkering with lawnmowers usually leans more heavily to men, but I've seen the girls around the traps too.
- parliament32 1y ago>it is generally considered sex discrimination to exclude someone on the basis of their sex So are women-only gyms not a thing in the UK then? Here in NA they're everywhere, we even have a women-only version of the YMCA (YWCA).
- dragonwriter 1y ago> Here in NA they're everywhere, we even have a women-only version of the YMCA (YWCA). Despite the names, neither the YWCA or YMCA as broad organizations strictly restrict membership by gender (or religion, for that matter.) My understanding with YWCA specifically is that inclusiveness on gender varies considerably by individual local association.
- dragonwriter 1y ago> In UK law, it is generally considered sex discrimination to exclude someone on the basis of their sex Whether or not the law prohibits or permits such discrimination, differential treatment (definitely including outright exclusion) on the basis of sex is, obviously sex discrimination, that’s just the meaning of the words.
- jim-jim-jim 1y agoI'm under the impression that women's only spaces are very much frowned upon in the English speaking world, whether it be in sports, book awards, knitting circles, toilets, or prisons. This isn't an x-has-it-worse comment by the way. I think every demographic is entitled to self-segregate without shame, and the ladies definitely face their own struggles in achieving this.
- dwighttk 1y agoYour impression is mistaken. E.g. Girl Scouts: allowed to be girls only Boy Scouts: now “Scouting” because girls are allowed My intramural sports in college had coed and women only teams
- compass_copium 1y agoBSA made the decision to allow girls on their own and it's been fantastic for the program.
- bluefirebrand 1y agoYou actually think this organization made this decision on their own with no outside pressure, or internal pressure from women? I have a bridge to sell you
- dralley 1y agoThe "external pressure" was largely just the pressure of declining membership.
- bluefirebrand 1y agoWhat pressure led to declining membership? Did it have anything to do with "Boy Scouts is a sexist organization" narratives?
- 1y ago
- rsynnott 1y agoSo there’s at least one type of men’s only space in the UK; some gay club nights are men-only, and enforce this with registration/membership. Was a bit of a culture shock visiting from Ireland, where, as far as I know, this is not a thing (even the most male-oriented club nights _allow_ women, and there’ll usually be one or two; I’ve never known anyone to have a problem with this). I’m unsure whether there’s a legal issue here (one thing that comes to mind is that I know the UK at least historically had weird laws about what constitutes public sex, so maybe excluding women allows them to legally have darkrooms or something?) or if it’s just cultural.
- moritonal 1y agoAnecdotally I heard this was because straight-women would prefer these clubs due to less pressure and more fun, which caused straight-men to try get into the clubs just to hit on them.
- nothercastle 1y agoAs a straight man can confirm
- fennecfoxy 1y agoThat's because gay clubs/bars have ended up chock full of straight women. People claim it's because it's "safer from all the gross men in other places", which may be partially true. But also I believe it's because gay clubs can just be nicer overall, plenty of interesting drinks like cocktails available rather than just beer, more variety in music, etc. I think they may disallow women because for the bi/pan men in the crowd - their behaviour changes when women are present, they get more aggressive, domineering, chest beating. I notice it all the time in queer but non-gay friends constantly. Which always annoyed me because I've been to a few Soho "gay" bars since and they're just full of straight women/hen dos. Asked for a cocktail..."we don't do cocktails". How the fuck do you call yourself a gay bar anymore then! I go to a regular meet and one of the places next door is a drag bar, whose entire purpose seems to be to host hen dos. Ugh.
- HankStallone 1y agoWomen do have their own spaces, at least here in the Midwest US. But women tend to think the men are having more fun over in their male-only spaces, so they want into them, and then those spaces become co-ed, and pretty soon the men are looking around for a new male-only space. Not because they don't enjoy spending time with women, but because there's something about a male-only space that lets a man relax and recharge in a different way. That cycle tends to repeat, and you don't really see it in reverse. Men are mildly curious, at most, about what women do in their own spaces, and generally don't seek to join them. That probably adds to the perception women have that the male-only spaces are more fun.
- nothercastle 1y agoIt’s because women fight vigorously and scream loudly to keep men out. They call them creeps and that’s almost always effective
- beAbU 1y agoIreland has women's sheds I believe
- bcraven 1y agoYou have selectively quoted that article. Note the last four paragraphs are: >Andrew McNerney, 70, admitted there was initially some resistance to becoming a mixed group. >He said: "There was apprehension, but in all honesty, it's turned out well. >"We [the men] escape now and again [to the quiet room] and have a chat and weigh things up." >But he added: "It's a lovely atmosphere, and it's been good."
- JimDabell 1y agoYes. I selectively pulled out the bits that I thought were relevant instead of quoting the whole thing. I know he said that it’s been good, but taken in relation to the rest of the article, I don’t place much weight on it. The women persistently pressured the men to join, the men were apprehensive, they allowed them in for one morning, one morning turned into all the time, women now comprise 50% of the group, and the men’s area is now relegated to a back room they escape to. They got one of the men to say it was good, but that’s not the story that the article was telling.
- williamdclt 1y ago> that’s not the story that the article was telling. It is though? Reading the article, I'm fully getting a sense that its point is that it was an improvement for everyone (despite the article describing it as being triggered from nagging from the women). Now you can choose not to believe that, but that _is_ the story the article was telling, or at least it's how I understand it.
- boppo1 1y ago[flagged]
- afavour 1y ago> the men were apprehensive, they allowed them in for one morning, one morning turned into all the time Your assumption is that it “turned into all the time” against the wishes of the men but that’s not clear at all. Being apprehensive about change and then quickly discovering it was for the better is something we all experience in life.
- notarobot123 1y agoThe men are there to meet each other, not to avoid women. Gender segregation isn't the point - it's about building relationships.
- JimDabell 1y agoThey had to be persistently pressured into letting women in, and when that happened they set aside a men-only room to escape to. Gender segregation may not be the point but it seems like it’s important to them.
- philipallstar 1y ago> The men are there to meet each other, not to avoid women. Gender segregation isn't the point - it's about building relationships. I'm not sure that's quite true. Men tend to talk and joke in a different way to women, which they then modify around women or be punished. The main difference between an old-school Personnel department and a modern HR department is HR is (self-)tasked with making sure the environment is always suitable for women. Men have very few places, if any, where they can just be themselves, unmodified. And when those places exist, large shaming campaigns and marketing appear to tell them off and to entice women into them.
- emptyfile 1y ago[dead]
- kgwxd 1y ago[flagged]
- potato3732842 1y agoSurely you see the irony in advocating for "just man up and comply"? Imagine how this comment would come across if applied along any other demographic axis.
- meheleventyone 1y ago
- immibis 1y agoWhy does the presence of women cause men to not have male friends?
- ReptileMan 1y agoThe group dynamic changes the moment it is not single sex anymore.
- the_gipsy 1y ago[flagged]
- vladvasiliu 1y agoI don't think you need to exclude homosexuals. As a straight male, I interact with my homosexual buddies the same way I interact with my straight buddies. Women, gay or straight, interact differently, including those in whom I have no sexual interest. If there was inappropriate behavior which wouldn't stop once called out, they would be excluded.
- the_gipsy 1y agoYou specifically maybe don't, but homosexual (or bisexual) males do have sexual interest in other homo- or bisexual men. So it wouldn't be a "problem" as long as there exactly only one homosexual, or as long as they're a very small minority.
- nkrisc 1y agoNo, you don’t.
- ReptileMan 1y agoNo - enlighten me.
- bregma 1y ago[flagged]
- lupusreal 1y agoWhat I find a bit remarkable is how they lost control of their club dynamics so severely. I've been a regular attendee of a few hacker spaces that were open to the public but never had the problem they describe. I think maybe a key aspect is ensuring that all men, particular the ones that are classically unattractive (even repulsive) feel welcome as valued equals. Many women cannot countenance this and will try to shape group membership to be more agreeable; those women are free to leave. The rest are welcome to stay and at that point there shouldn't be any issues. (Of course it goes without saying that actual harassment isn't tolerated, but being a smelly fat slob with a heart of gold doesn't count.)
- SiempreViernes 1y agoUh, they don't describe any problem though? The piece is about how everyone agrees the change is for the better, its only people in this thread that describe women and men woodworking together as a problem.
- nothercastle 1y agoObviously the remaining members think it’s better but as an adverse selection problem you can’t ask the ones that left
- SiempreViernes 1y agoThe notion that any members left is your own invention.
- JimDabell 1y agoFrom a Reddit discussion about the same article: > I spoke with some men at the Man Shed in Edinburgh at Christmas and they mentioned that in the cases they had heard about where women had been let in the number of male members dropped. — https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1k6w3pr/we_put_the_pressure_on_to_join_men_in_sheds/motuc2g/ https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/1k6w3pr/we_p... Aside from that, just take a look at what happened. When women joined, the men responded by finding a men-only room to “escape” to. It’s hardly a great leap to think that some of those men will escape someplace else instead.
- ctippett 1y agoI had never heard of Men's Sheds before. Thank you for mentioning it.
- idiotsecant 1y agoYes, unfortunately sometimes social events are wildly successful and even more people want to join, and the existing members let them, and everyone has a great time together. It's unfortunate, but it happens.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]