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Don't fall into the trap: Government penalizing private parties without due process can be appealing when it's a private party you don't like, but even those pe
by mmooss 1y ago
Don't fall into the trap: Government penalizing private parties without due process can be appealing when it's a private party you don't like, but even those people deserve due process - that's the point, everyone does. Also it's arbitrary, unchecked power that is used for corrupt purposes, and by supporting it in a situation where you like to see it, you are legitimizing that power in every case.
Edit: It's tough to give due processs to foreign individuals, especially those who don't want to be found. But there are many ways, including via their own government, or via the fact that American company resources are used for these crimes - everyone in the US connects through an ISP operating on US soil.
- tw04 1y agoCan you cite where in the US code of law a foreign criminal is afforded due process in a sanction action?
- robcohen 1y agoKindHearts for Charitable Humanitarian Development v. Geithner and Al Haramain Islamic Foundation v. U.S. Department of the Treasury
- duskwuff 1y agoThose are names of cases, not laws.
- paulryanrogers 1y agoPrecedent fills out the finer points in how laws apply, or don't.
- ksenzee 1y agoPerhaps you’re not familiar with the common law system and its reliance on case law?
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- mbrubeck 1y agoIn both of those cases the designated entity was incorporated in the US (KindHearts in Ohio, AHIF-Oregon in Oregon).
- mmooss 1y agoI didn't say it was illegal.
- orbital-decay 1y agoThat's more of a problem with the US code of law than with the point GP is making.
- tw04 1y agoI have 0 issues with the US sanctioning criminal organizations that are defrauding Americans. It’s not a slippery slope, it’s common sense which is why literally nobody is trying to defend the perpetrator in a court of law.
- duxup 1y agoI’m sure the folks running that scam center or the cloud service provider can afford to hire attorneys and argue their case.
- resist_futility 1y agoEvidence of active harm, if they were in the US they would have been raided. They get sanctioned and can sue instead.
- mmooss 1y ago> They get sanctioned and can sue instead. Do you mean, if the government 'sanctions' you, your remedy is to sue the government? The government can't sanction you without due process. Executive branch agencies have internal legal processes, with administrative judges, that can be appealed to the courts. Also, you can't sue the government in most cases due to sovereign immunity.
- MrMorden 1y agoThe process is that they need to be designated by specified cabinet members based on published criteria. If Funnull believe that they weren't lawfully designated (e.g., because they're actually in Peoria or whatever), they can hire a lawyer and sue.
- School-Cotton 1y ago[flagged]
- mmooss 1y agoThere are laws about when you can shoot someone during warfare. For example, you need to be a uniformed soldier, in most cases, of a party to an active conflict. The declaration of war and your uniform make the homicide legal. The US has not declared war and these aren't acts of war.
- dragonwriter 1y ago> The declaration of war and your uniform make the homicide legal. Declarations of war have very little international importance any more, since the recognition of the crime of aggression; either you are engaging in aggressive war, which a declaration does nothing to legitimize, or you are engaging in defensive war against an aggressor, where it is the aggression, not any declaration, that gives your fighting legitimacy.
- lesuorac 1y agoSeems like some process was followed here to me. FBI investigated a bunch of scams and found somebody assisted scammers. It's not like they pulled a name out of a hat and sanctioned them.
- jaoane 1y agoWhere’s the judge in all of this?
- lesuorac 1y agoDue process just means following pre-written law. ex. There's no judge involved when a cop shows up to a fight and arrests both people. It's the same law [1] that everybody is talking about w.r.t. Trump's Tariffs except that global trade isn't emergent while Funnull is a new actor. [1]: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/DCPD-201600880/pdf/DCPD-201600880.pdf https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/DCPD-201600880/pdf/DCPD-...
- jaoane 1y agoThey arrest people to put them in front of a judge. This is nothing like that.
- lesuorac 1y agoI'm sure the treasury department would love for the guy to appear in front of a judge. However, he's also welcome to email an appeal [1]. Note: This is a civil penalty. Much like a traffic ticket and does not require a judge. --- You won't necessarily show up in front of a judge if you get arrested. You may get released with no charges. You might also not get court time until a year+ from now inwhich case you'll probably plead guilty to time served regardless of the crime since it lets you out now. Due process does not mean "judge approved". It just means consistent with written law. [1]: https://ofac.treasury.gov/specially-designated-nationals-list-sdn-list/filing-a-petition-for-removal-from-an-ofac-list https://ofac.treasury.gov/specially-designated-nationals-lis...
- lordfrito 1y agoWhile we're at it, we should also tax all foreigners living abroad. All this due process stuff is expensive.
- HamsterDan 1y agoThey are a foreign company. They have no due process rights. We could hit their data center with a cruise missile tomorrow and it would be perfectly legal.
- mmooss 1y ago> They are a foreign company. They have no due process rights. That is part of my point; there needs to be due process. > We could hit their data center with a cruise missile tomorrow and it would be perfectly legal. That is false. It is illegal to take military action against another country without a declaration of war.