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Is that how the rich men are squeezing into heaven these days? "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the

by klipt 1y ago

Is that how the rich men are squeezing into heaven these days? "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven" There's a theory that the eye of the needle was a narrow gate in Jerusalem's city wall that was notoriously hard for camels to squeeze through. But seems the hard evidence for that is limited.

mullingitover 1y ago
> There's a theory that the eye of the needle was a narrow gate in Jerusalem's city wall This is a very debunked myth, brought to you by people who are desperate to avoid Christianity's clear proscription on hoarding wealth.
- lazide 1y ago
  Can you imagine how many indulgences a billion dollars could buy? Hey, enough billions and you might even be able to buy your own gospel!
  - hinkley 1y ago
    Emperor Constantine has entered the chat. King James has entered the chat. Henry VIII has entered the chat.
- lo_zamoyski 1y ago
  To be clear, it isn’t wealth per se that is taught is evil, but attachment to it and pining for it. The prosperity gospel demonstrates this perverse and unhealthy lust for riches. Many don’t pay attention to the fuller context. And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” The rich only make up a very small percentage of any society, so why would the disciples ask “Who then can be saved?”. They ask, because it isn’t wealth per se, but attachment and greed. The poor and modest in possessions, who made up most of Christ’s disciples, were vulnerable to the very same vice. Experience confirms this. Look at the aspirations of the poor in our societies. They are often vulgar, base, and materialistic.
  - mullingitover 1y ago
    It's clear that that proper practice for a wealthy person would be to immediately jettison the wealth. Matt 19:21 NIV: "Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” So if you're wealthy and poor people exist, you're in a state of sin. Christianity is an apocalyptic religion, you're to assume the world could end tomorrow so your instructions aren't to simply not want the money, it's to get rid of it and donate it all to charity immediately.
    - Amezarak 1y ago
      The story in Matthew 19:21 has exactly the same point and precedes this very parable. > But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. [Then follows the camel and the needle.] The rich man fails the test because he is unable to give up his wealth; his heart is not in the right place. He loves the world and he loves his riches more than he loves God. It is entirely possible to have your heart in the right place and be rich, as demonstrated by several other examples. Another example is in Acts, where Peter kills a man and his wife because they lie about how much money they're giving - they were perfectly free, and would have been saved, even had they withheld their money from the commons. Paul also says there are not many rich men that are Christians - but there are some. The attitude that "ahah, you didn't give your money to the poor, so you're not a REAL Christian doing what you're supposed to do" is put into the mouth of a figure in the Bible. That figure is Judas. > Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. > 4Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, > 5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? Jesus, and the other apostles, are not saying that you can't be rich. They're saying you cannot love money more than God, and even trusting in money is ultimately a foolish endeavor because your life and prosperity are in God's hands. If you are snidely arguing that people aren't Christians or following God simply because they haven't given all their money to the poor, you are falling into the same error as Judas, and the same general category of error as the Pharisees.
tengwar2 1y ago
That story is only tracked back to the 1400's, so not credible. The currently favoured theory is that this was a translation error. Apparently in Aramaic (the language of Judaea and Galilee), the word for "camel" is very close to the word for "rope". As with all parables (and this does qualify as a parable) it may be intended to reward some thought - e.g. the only way of getting a rope through the eye of needle is to strip away almost all of it, rather than being a flat negation.
- api 1y ago
  So basically it says “you can’t take it with you, so do something good with it while you’re alive instead of hoarding it like you can take it with you.”
  - tengwar2 1y ago
    Up to a point, but there are other parables which make death explicit, e.g. the rich farmer who tore down his barns to build bigger ones, and was told he would die that night. This parable doesn't link this to having limited time, it's just about "sell everything, give to the poor" to be saved.
- felipeerias 1y ago
  The key of the teaching comes after that metaphor, when the disciples ask how one can be saved and Jesus answers that “with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” These words eventually became the foundation of Christian charity in an Ancient world that until then despised and rejected the weak and infirm. Many of our modern day institutions trace their origin to that Christian charity, to those few enigmatic words. (Peter Brown's “Through the Eye of a Needle” is a great book to know more about this process.)
- wileydragonfly 1y ago
  Is your source on this that 90s era website I’ve seen passed around for 20 years? You truly think that thousands of theologians over hundreds of years never noticed this one simple coincidence?

by klipt 1y ago

mullingitover 1y ago

> There's a theory that the eye of the needle was a narrow gate in Jerusalem's city wall This is a very debunked myth, brought to you by people who are desperate to avoid Christianity's clear proscription on hoarding wealth.

lazide 1y ago
Can you imagine how many indulgences a billion dollars could buy? Hey, enough billions and you might even be able to buy your own gospel!
- hinkley 1y ago
  Emperor Constantine has entered the chat. King James has entered the chat. Henry VIII has entered the chat.
lo_zamoyski 1y ago
To be clear, it isn’t wealth per se that is taught is evil, but attachment to it and pining for it. The prosperity gospel demonstrates this perverse and unhealthy lust for riches. Many don’t pay attention to the fuller context. And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” The rich only make up a very small percentage of any society, so why would the disciples ask “Who then can be saved?”. They ask, because it isn’t wealth per se, but attachment and greed. The poor and modest in possessions, who made up most of Christ’s disciples, were vulnerable to the very same vice. Experience confirms this. Look at the aspirations of the poor in our societies. They are often vulgar, base, and materialistic.
- mullingitover 1y ago
  It's clear that that proper practice for a wealthy person would be to immediately jettison the wealth. Matt 19:21 NIV: "Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” So if you're wealthy and poor people exist, you're in a state of sin. Christianity is an apocalyptic religion, you're to assume the world could end tomorrow so your instructions aren't to simply not want the money, it's to get rid of it and donate it all to charity immediately.
  - Amezarak 1y ago
    The story in Matthew 19:21 has exactly the same point and precedes this very parable. > But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. [Then follows the camel and the needle.] The rich man fails the test because he is unable to give up his wealth; his heart is not in the right place. He loves the world and he loves his riches more than he loves God. It is entirely possible to have your heart in the right place and be rich, as demonstrated by several other examples. Another example is in Acts, where Peter kills a man and his wife because they lie about how much money they're giving - they were perfectly free, and would have been saved, even had they withheld their money from the commons. Paul also says there are not many rich men that are Christians - but there are some. The attitude that "ahah, you didn't give your money to the poor, so you're not a REAL Christian doing what you're supposed to do" is put into the mouth of a figure in the Bible. That figure is Judas. > Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. > 4Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, > 5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? Jesus, and the other apostles, are not saying that you can't be rich. They're saying you cannot love money more than God, and even trusting in money is ultimately a foolish endeavor because your life and prosperity are in God's hands. If you are snidely arguing that people aren't Christians or following God simply because they haven't given all their money to the poor, you are falling into the same error as Judas, and the same general category of error as the Pharisees.

tengwar2 1y ago

That story is only tracked back to the 1400's, so not credible. The currently favoured theory is that this was a translation error. Apparently in Aramaic (the language of Judaea and Galilee), the word for "camel" is very close to the word for "rope". As with all parables (and this does qualify as a parable) it may be intended to reward some thought - e.g. the only way of getting a rope through the eye of needle is to strip away almost all of it, rather than being a flat negation.

api 1y ago
So basically it says “you can’t take it with you, so do something good with it while you’re alive instead of hoarding it like you can take it with you.”
- tengwar2 1y ago
  Up to a point, but there are other parables which make death explicit, e.g. the rich farmer who tore down his barns to build bigger ones, and was told he would die that night. This parable doesn't link this to having limited time, it's just about "sell everything, give to the poor" to be saved.
felipeerias 1y ago
The key of the teaching comes after that metaphor, when the disciples ask how one can be saved and Jesus answers that “with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” These words eventually became the foundation of Christian charity in an Ancient world that until then despised and rejected the weak and infirm. Many of our modern day institutions trace their origin to that Christian charity, to those few enigmatic words. (Peter Brown's “Through the Eye of a Needle” is a great book to know more about this process.)
wileydragonfly 1y ago
Is your source on this that 90s era website I’ve seen passed around for 20 years? You truly think that thousands of theologians over hundreds of years never noticed this one simple coincidence?