5 ms·

I used to work for a .NET shop that randomly wrote some automation scripts in bash. The expertise to maintain them long term (and frankly, write them half-decen

I used to work for a .NET shop that randomly wrote some automation scripts in bash. The expertise to maintain them long term (and frankly, write them half-decently to begin with) simply wasn't there. Never understood why they didn't just write their tooling in C#. Maybe this will make it seem like a more viable approach.

psyclobe 1y ago
Bash is the tool that’s already there; that is always a real good reason to use it. Dotnet is a pig with its dependencies by comparison.
- dragonwriter 1y ago
  > Bash is the tool that’s already there; that is always a real good reason to use it. If you are a dotnet dev shop, it is quite likely that dotnet is also a tool that is already there the places you need automation. Plus, its also the tool that is already there in your team’s skillset.
  - senthil_rajasek 1y ago
    I am an old hat. I've been in dotnet dev land for decades and still use bash (git bash). Pros: Syntax + access to familiar shell commands Cons: Bash scripts are not easy to maintain.
    - gofreddygo 1y ago
      Not an old hat. in the dotnet world for 3 years, bash over a decade. Agree with bash not being easy to maintain. Argument about bash being always there breaks down quickly. Even if you limit yourself to bash+awk+grep, they dont work consistently across different bash flavors or across platforms (mac/win/linuz). My approach now is to have my programs, in the language most convenient to me, compiled to a bunch of archs and have that run across systems. One time pain, reduces over time.
      - const_cast 1y ago
        > Argument about bash being always there breaks down quickly. Even if you limit yourself to bash+awk+grep, they dont work consistently across different bash flavors or across platforms IMO this is why Perl was invented and you should just use Perl. Bash isn't portable and isn't very safe either. If you're only going to use a couple of commands, there's really no reason to use bash. The usecase, in my head, for bash is using a variety of unix utils. But then those utils aren't portable. Perl is really great here because it's available on pretty much every computer on Earth and is consistent.
        spauldo 1y ago
        Except Windows, of course. You can install it there but it's plainly obvious it's in a foreign environment. A lot of people focus on Perl's bad reputation as one of the first web languages instead of its actual purpose, a better sh/awk/sed. If you're writing shell scripts Perl's a godsend for anything complex.
  - jmull 1y ago
    There's still version/dependency hell (one thing wants 6, one thing wants 8, one thing wants 8.1, etc.). This can be managed but you have to manage it. (A fanatical commitment to backwards compatibility can make this a lot easier, but it doesn't seem to me that dotnet has that.)
  - jinushaun 1y ago
    I worked at a dotnet shop a few years ago back. We still used bash over powershell unless we required COM
- jayd16 1y ago
  Its trivial to install a consistent PowerShell environment on the major OSes. Not so for Bash.
  - spauldo 1y ago
    If you write to POSIX it's a lot more portable. If you're doing something outside POSIX, it's probably best to use something else, like Perl.
    - jayd16 1y ago
      ...Or powershell! Besides, the trick is knowing what is POSIX compliant and portable, and what isn't. A lot of things will almost work.
      - spauldo 1y ago
        Knowing stuff is what we're paid for, otherwise we'd all be making minimum wage. Besides, there are plenty of non-bash shell scripting resources out there, which is good to learn if you want to work with the BSDs or proprietary UNIX systems. Powershell on UNIX is like Perl on Windows. It works, but it's weird and alien. But the same can be said for .NET, really.
- Ray20 1y ago
  >Dotnet is a pig with its dependencies by comparison. Dotnet with all dependencies you will get in how much time? In like 6 minutes including all the preparations? So the difference between "already there" and dotnet - is 6 minutes. It's hard to imagine a case where this difference matters.
- crote 1y ago
  Sure, but these days so is Python. And you've got a dozen other languages available after a single command. You wouldn't recommend using a kitchen knife instead of a chainsaw to cut down a tree just because it's already there, would you? Bash has a huge number of footguns, and a rather unusual syntax. It's not a language where you can safely let a junior developer tweak something in a script and expect it to go well. Using a linter like ShellCheck is essentially a hard requirement. If you're working in a team where 99.9% of the code you're maintaining is C#, having a handful of load-bearing Bash scripts lying around is probably a Really Bad Idea. Just convert it to C# as well and save everyone a lot of trouble.
  - CoolCold 1y ago
    > Bash has a huge number of footguns, and a rather unusual syntax. It's not a language where you can safely let a junior developer tweak something in a script and expect it to go well. I'd say as someone who started with shell/bash in ~ 2000 to cater Linux systems, it's quote usual syntax and I believe that's true for many sysadmins. No way I'd like to deal with opaque .Net or even Go stuff - incapable of doing "bash -x script.sh" while debugging production systems at 3AM. And non production as well - just loosing my time (and team time) on unusual syntax, getting familiar with nuget and ensuring internet access for that repos and pinging ITSec guys to open access to that repos. > let a junior developer tweak something in a script and expect it to go well let developers do their job, writing bash scripts is something extraordinary for dev team to do, just because - where they expected to apply it? I can imagine "lonely dev startups" situations only, where it may be reasonably needed
JamesSwift 1y ago
Or just use powershell. It has some idiosyncrasies but its a pretty nice platform for scripting
- moomin 1y ago
  Here’s the really annoying thing with powershell: it doesn’t have a module distribution model. Like, at all. A csharp script, on the other hand, gets NuGet out of the box.
  - accoil 1y ago
    What is the PowerShellGet module[1] missing? It comes preinstalled in all versions post 5.1 (though 5.1 itself is limited). [1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/powershellget https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/powershe...
    - moomin 1y ago
      TFW where you're dead wrong and have to upvote everyone who told you so...
  - pjmlp 1y ago
    Not only it has modules, there are several NuGet like repos for Powershell.
  - Natfan 1y ago
    False: https://www.powershellgallery.com/ https://www.powershellgallery.com/
- shagmin 1y ago
  Especially for C# developers. You can use any CLR (e.g. C#) objects in powershell, for prototyping, automation, proof of concept, etc.,.
- noodletheworld 1y ago
  It is reasonably unlikely that bash scripts are easily replaceable by powershell scripts. Theres a fair argument that complex scripts require a complex scripting language, but you have to have a good reason to pick powershell. Typically, on non-windows, there is not one. Its the same “tier” as bash; the thing you use because its there and then reach past for hard things. The same reason as bash. Theres no realistic situation I would (and Ive written a lot of powershell) go, “gee, this bash script/makefile is too big and complex, lets rewrite it in powershell!”

psyclobe 1y ago

Bash is the tool that’s already there; that is always a real good reason to use it. Dotnet is a pig with its dependencies by comparison.

dragonwriter 1y ago
> Bash is the tool that’s already there; that is always a real good reason to use it. If you are a dotnet dev shop, it is quite likely that dotnet is also a tool that is already there the places you need automation. Plus, its also the tool that is already there in your team’s skillset.
- senthil_rajasek 1y ago
  I am an old hat. I've been in dotnet dev land for decades and still use bash (git bash). Pros: Syntax + access to familiar shell commands Cons: Bash scripts are not easy to maintain.
  - gofreddygo 1y ago
    Not an old hat. in the dotnet world for 3 years, bash over a decade. Agree with bash not being easy to maintain. Argument about bash being always there breaks down quickly. Even if you limit yourself to bash+awk+grep, they dont work consistently across different bash flavors or across platforms (mac/win/linuz). My approach now is to have my programs, in the language most convenient to me, compiled to a bunch of archs and have that run across systems. One time pain, reduces over time.
    - const_cast 1y ago
      > Argument about bash being always there breaks down quickly. Even if you limit yourself to bash+awk+grep, they dont work consistently across different bash flavors or across platforms IMO this is why Perl was invented and you should just use Perl. Bash isn't portable and isn't very safe either. If you're only going to use a couple of commands, there's really no reason to use bash. The usecase, in my head, for bash is using a variety of unix utils. But then those utils aren't portable. Perl is really great here because it's available on pretty much every computer on Earth and is consistent.
      - spauldo 1y ago
        Except Windows, of course. You can install it there but it's plainly obvious it's in a foreign environment. A lot of people focus on Perl's bad reputation as one of the first web languages instead of its actual purpose, a better sh/awk/sed. If you're writing shell scripts Perl's a godsend for anything complex.
- jmull 1y ago
  There's still version/dependency hell (one thing wants 6, one thing wants 8, one thing wants 8.1, etc.). This can be managed but you have to manage it. (A fanatical commitment to backwards compatibility can make this a lot easier, but it doesn't seem to me that dotnet has that.)
- jinushaun 1y ago
  I worked at a dotnet shop a few years ago back. We still used bash over powershell unless we required COM
jayd16 1y ago
Its trivial to install a consistent PowerShell environment on the major OSes. Not so for Bash.
- spauldo 1y ago
  If you write to POSIX it's a lot more portable. If you're doing something outside POSIX, it's probably best to use something else, like Perl.
  - jayd16 1y ago
    ...Or powershell! Besides, the trick is knowing what is POSIX compliant and portable, and what isn't. A lot of things will almost work.
    - spauldo 1y ago
      Knowing stuff is what we're paid for, otherwise we'd all be making minimum wage. Besides, there are plenty of non-bash shell scripting resources out there, which is good to learn if you want to work with the BSDs or proprietary UNIX systems. Powershell on UNIX is like Perl on Windows. It works, but it's weird and alien. But the same can be said for .NET, really.
Ray20 1y ago
>Dotnet is a pig with its dependencies by comparison. Dotnet with all dependencies you will get in how much time? In like 6 minutes including all the preparations? So the difference between "already there" and dotnet - is 6 minutes. It's hard to imagine a case where this difference matters.
crote 1y ago
Sure, but these days so is Python. And you've got a dozen other languages available after a single command. You wouldn't recommend using a kitchen knife instead of a chainsaw to cut down a tree just because it's already there, would you? Bash has a huge number of footguns, and a rather unusual syntax. It's not a language where you can safely let a junior developer tweak something in a script and expect it to go well. Using a linter like ShellCheck is essentially a hard requirement. If you're working in a team where 99.9% of the code you're maintaining is C#, having a handful of load-bearing Bash scripts lying around is probably a Really Bad Idea. Just convert it to C# as well and save everyone a lot of trouble.
- CoolCold 1y ago
  > Bash has a huge number of footguns, and a rather unusual syntax. It's not a language where you can safely let a junior developer tweak something in a script and expect it to go well. I'd say as someone who started with shell/bash in ~ 2000 to cater Linux systems, it's quote usual syntax and I believe that's true for many sysadmins. No way I'd like to deal with opaque .Net or even Go stuff - incapable of doing "bash -x script.sh" while debugging production systems at 3AM. And non production as well - just loosing my time (and team time) on unusual syntax, getting familiar with nuget and ensuring internet access for that repos and pinging ITSec guys to open access to that repos. > let a junior developer tweak something in a script and expect it to go well let developers do their job, writing bash scripts is something extraordinary for dev team to do, just because - where they expected to apply it? I can imagine "lonely dev startups" situations only, where it may be reasonably needed

JamesSwift 1y ago

Or just use powershell. It has some idiosyncrasies but its a pretty nice platform for scripting

moomin 1y ago
Here’s the really annoying thing with powershell: it doesn’t have a module distribution model. Like, at all. A csharp script, on the other hand, gets NuGet out of the box.
- accoil 1y ago
  What is the PowerShellGet module[1] missing? It comes preinstalled in all versions post 5.1 (though 5.1 itself is limited). [1]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/powershellget https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/powershell/module/powershe...
  - moomin 1y ago
    TFW where you're dead wrong and have to upvote everyone who told you so...
- pjmlp 1y ago
  Not only it has modules, there are several NuGet like repos for Powershell.
- Natfan 1y ago
  False: https://www.powershellgallery.com/ https://www.powershellgallery.com/
shagmin 1y ago
Especially for C# developers. You can use any CLR (e.g. C#) objects in powershell, for prototyping, automation, proof of concept, etc.,.
noodletheworld 1y ago
It is reasonably unlikely that bash scripts are easily replaceable by powershell scripts. Theres a fair argument that complex scripts require a complex scripting language, but you have to have a good reason to pick powershell. Typically, on non-windows, there is not one. Its the same “tier” as bash; the thing you use because its there and then reach past for hard things. The same reason as bash. Theres no realistic situation I would (and Ive written a lot of powershell) go, “gee, this bash script/makefile is too big and complex, lets rewrite it in powershell!”