4 ms·

> I don't think it requires the courts to agree Eventually the courts have to agree/disagree if someone starts challenging it up the chain.

thaumasiotes 1y ago
Technically they don't. They can say, for example, that the burden placed on commerce is a political question. That would be a declaration that they agree with the government, which looks like agreeing that a burden exists right now, but automatically switches positions whenever the administration does.
- tptacek 1y ago
  They could say that, but they won't, because "unequal impositions or discriminations aforesaid" is a straightforwardly justiciable question. Deciding whether things are "unequal" or "discriminatory" is almost exactly what courts are for.
  - margalabargala 1y ago
    Nearly every country that Trump tariffed does have some sort of tariff on the US. Canada has a sizable dairy tariff, for example. Whether that dairy tariff is particularly onerous on the US, worth antagonizing our closest ally for, that would be the political question, but certainly it's definitionally unequal.
    - tptacek 1y ago
      I have no idea what this has to do with what I said. Maybe you think Trump can formulate a convincing argument that he is acting with the intended scope of the Tariff Act. Ok? All I'm saying is: his argument would very much be subject to challenge in court, and this is not a non-justiciable "political question".
      - margalabargala 1y ago
        I was agreeing with you, and expanding by pointing out an example of an inequality.
    - bruce511 1y ago
      Like most things in life, tarifs can be used well, or used badly. Canada's Dairy Tariff is specifically designed to protect a specific local industry, which exists, is of national interest to keep, and which could come under threat from cheap alternatives imported from abroad. It's specific, targeted, and serves a valuable purpose. They have been in place a long time, and provide a stable trading environment making the future easier to predict. Trumps tarrifs are the complete opposite. He could have done tarifs well, but he's lazy and so opted for "easy" instead. By tarrifing countries you mix all industries together. For example coffee. The US imports 99% of their coffee. The local coffee industry is tiny, and limited to Hawaii. There's no national interest, no local jobs, nothing. Tariffing coffee just makes it more expensive. No one is planting coffee trees. Partly because the US has the wrong climate, but also because growing new trees (or building a factory) takes years, and a lot of investment. That means confidence that the situation today will last long enough to get a return. In truth the tarrifs seldom make it past the weekend, or a couple weeks, then they're suspended. The administration openly admits they're negotiating "trade deals". So, I can't invest anything based on current tarrifs because they're very impermanent. This nonsense is not about whether tarifs are good or bad. This is about how they gave been done (which is epically badly, and stupidly.) On the upside a generation of future kids will learn about this, and how doing the right thing badly is worse than doing nothing at all.
      - worik 1y ago
        Any Canadians here to comment on the milk tariff policies? I have spent ten days of my life in Canada and I learnt of the tariffs by news reports concerning people driving to USA, loading up on milk, coming home. Tariffs are not always stupid. But in most cases there is a better alternative. E.g. Canada could subsidise domestic milk producers. (We used to do that in New Zealand) There is a lot of nonsense talked about economics ("tariffs always bad" is an example) because there are strong incentives at work for the actors. It makes it very difficult for policy makers to have good, responsive, effective economic policy. Money and politics? What could go wrong....
        bruce511 1y ago
        Naturally individuals can cross the border and get cheaper stuff. But in the grand scale of things, that's irrelevant. IMO tarifs are preferable to subsidies. Subsidies encourage over production, plus still places the industry at risk. Tarifs just incentivize purchasing local. Plus for whatever revenue there is, it's an income to govt coffers. Whereas a subsidy is an expense. And ultimately the cost is born by the consumer of that product, not the wider tax base. So, well targeted, it's a more effective tool than a subsidy, and much less prone to waste or corruption. Put another way, a tarrif is much cheaper than a subsidy (and tarrif makes for a better outcome.)
    - throw0101d 1y ago
      > Nearly every country that Trump tariffed does have some sort of tariff on the US. Canada has a sizable dairy tariff, for example. Canada has a dairy tariff after a certain volume is imported. The US has not hit that volume and so the tariffs are currently zero. > Last year, Canada was the second-highest importer of U.S. dairy products, buying about $1.14 billion US, and it was the United States' top export market for eggs and related products. * https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-canada-us-dairy-trade-cusma-1.7483049 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-canada-us-dairy-trade... USMC also has a carve out for allowing more dairy imports: * https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/united-states-mexico-canada-agreement/fact-sheets/market-access-and-dairy-outcomes https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/unit... It should also be noted that the US subsidizes its dairy farms, which could be considered an unfair advantage and justification for anti-dumping measures (Trump's logic for many Chinese imports, e.g., steel). So Canadian dairy products cannot compete in the US market because they're 'too expensive' compared to what US farmers are selling things at: is that fair?
    - wqaatwt 1y ago
      Right. The average tariff on US goods applied by the EU is 4.1% IIRC Canada was significantly lower. So having “some sort of a tariff” isn’t that meaningful on its own.
      - mensetmanusman 1y ago
        It’s impossible to get the effective tariff rate because everyone works around them with VATs and random things like movie ticket taxes for foreign films that are effective tariffs but not officially counted as such.
        wqaatwt 1y ago
        > around them with VATs That’s such an absurd and nonsensical thing to say. How did you come up with it?
        johnnyanmac 1y ago
        in this day and age it doesn't even phase me. The president clearly doesn't care about coherent arguments, so why would anyone who potentially voted for him?
        Topfi 1y ago
        I was unaware EU goods are exempt from VAT over here. When did that change?

thaumasiotes 1y ago

Technically they don't. They can say, for example, that the burden placed on commerce is a political question. That would be a declaration that they agree with the government, which looks like agreeing that a burden exists right now, but automatically switches positions whenever the administration does.

tptacek 1y ago
They could say that, but they won't, because "unequal impositions or discriminations aforesaid" is a straightforwardly justiciable question. Deciding whether things are "unequal" or "discriminatory" is almost exactly what courts are for.
- margalabargala 1y ago
  Nearly every country that Trump tariffed does have some sort of tariff on the US. Canada has a sizable dairy tariff, for example. Whether that dairy tariff is particularly onerous on the US, worth antagonizing our closest ally for, that would be the political question, but certainly it's definitionally unequal.
  - tptacek 1y ago
    I have no idea what this has to do with what I said. Maybe you think Trump can formulate a convincing argument that he is acting with the intended scope of the Tariff Act. Ok? All I'm saying is: his argument would very much be subject to challenge in court, and this is not a non-justiciable "political question".
    - margalabargala 1y ago
      I was agreeing with you, and expanding by pointing out an example of an inequality.
  - bruce511 1y ago
    Like most things in life, tarifs can be used well, or used badly. Canada's Dairy Tariff is specifically designed to protect a specific local industry, which exists, is of national interest to keep, and which could come under threat from cheap alternatives imported from abroad. It's specific, targeted, and serves a valuable purpose. They have been in place a long time, and provide a stable trading environment making the future easier to predict. Trumps tarrifs are the complete opposite. He could have done tarifs well, but he's lazy and so opted for "easy" instead. By tarrifing countries you mix all industries together. For example coffee. The US imports 99% of their coffee. The local coffee industry is tiny, and limited to Hawaii. There's no national interest, no local jobs, nothing. Tariffing coffee just makes it more expensive. No one is planting coffee trees. Partly because the US has the wrong climate, but also because growing new trees (or building a factory) takes years, and a lot of investment. That means confidence that the situation today will last long enough to get a return. In truth the tarrifs seldom make it past the weekend, or a couple weeks, then they're suspended. The administration openly admits they're negotiating "trade deals". So, I can't invest anything based on current tarrifs because they're very impermanent. This nonsense is not about whether tarifs are good or bad. This is about how they gave been done (which is epically badly, and stupidly.) On the upside a generation of future kids will learn about this, and how doing the right thing badly is worse than doing nothing at all.
    - worik 1y ago
      Any Canadians here to comment on the milk tariff policies? I have spent ten days of my life in Canada and I learnt of the tariffs by news reports concerning people driving to USA, loading up on milk, coming home. Tariffs are not always stupid. But in most cases there is a better alternative. E.g. Canada could subsidise domestic milk producers. (We used to do that in New Zealand) There is a lot of nonsense talked about economics ("tariffs always bad" is an example) because there are strong incentives at work for the actors. It makes it very difficult for policy makers to have good, responsive, effective economic policy. Money and politics? What could go wrong....
      - bruce511 1y ago
        Naturally individuals can cross the border and get cheaper stuff. But in the grand scale of things, that's irrelevant. IMO tarifs are preferable to subsidies. Subsidies encourage over production, plus still places the industry at risk. Tarifs just incentivize purchasing local. Plus for whatever revenue there is, it's an income to govt coffers. Whereas a subsidy is an expense. And ultimately the cost is born by the consumer of that product, not the wider tax base. So, well targeted, it's a more effective tool than a subsidy, and much less prone to waste or corruption. Put another way, a tarrif is much cheaper than a subsidy (and tarrif makes for a better outcome.)
  - throw0101d 1y ago
    > Nearly every country that Trump tariffed does have some sort of tariff on the US. Canada has a sizable dairy tariff, for example. Canada has a dairy tariff after a certain volume is imported. The US has not hit that volume and so the tariffs are currently zero. > Last year, Canada was the second-highest importer of U.S. dairy products, buying about $1.14 billion US, and it was the United States' top export market for eggs and related products. * https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-canada-us-dairy-trade-cusma-1.7483049 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trump-canada-us-dairy-trade... USMC also has a carve out for allowing more dairy imports: * https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/united-states-mexico-canada-agreement/fact-sheets/market-access-and-dairy-outcomes https://ustr.gov/trade-agreements/free-trade-agreements/unit... It should also be noted that the US subsidizes its dairy farms, which could be considered an unfair advantage and justification for anti-dumping measures (Trump's logic for many Chinese imports, e.g., steel). So Canadian dairy products cannot compete in the US market because they're 'too expensive' compared to what US farmers are selling things at: is that fair?
  - wqaatwt 1y ago
    Right. The average tariff on US goods applied by the EU is 4.1% IIRC Canada was significantly lower. So having “some sort of a tariff” isn’t that meaningful on its own.
    - mensetmanusman 1y ago
      It’s impossible to get the effective tariff rate because everyone works around them with VATs and random things like movie ticket taxes for foreign films that are effective tariffs but not officially counted as such.
      - wqaatwt 1y ago
        > around them with VATs That’s such an absurd and nonsensical thing to say. How did you come up with it?
        johnnyanmac 1y ago
        in this day and age it doesn't even phase me. The president clearly doesn't care about coherent arguments, so why would anyone who potentially voted for him?
      - Topfi 1y ago
        I was unaware EU goods are exempt from VAT over here. When did that change?