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Universities in the US are a giant clusterfuck because they confuse themselves between centers of status/prestige, a place for learning/training, and a semi-pro

Universities in the US are a giant clusterfuck because they confuse themselves between centers of status/prestige, a place for learning/training, and a semi-professional sports team.

senderista 1y ago
Not sure why you're getting downvotes; I think this is quite accurate.
- riskassessment 1y ago
  They did not mention research which is like the defining characteristic of a university. They seem to be condescendingly grouping research into the category of "status/prestige"
  - wagwang 1y ago
    I was thinking of it from what an undergrad is trying to get out of college, graduate+ is an entirely different scene admittedly
    - riskassessment 1y ago
      Sure but I think it's an oversimplification to say that universities are unfocused and that this lack of focus is a problem because 1) the alternative already exists (smaller colleges are typically focused primarily on education with less research and less sports) 2) Universities doing a lot of things (including offering undergrads connections to research labs) is one of the main reasons that they are an attractive option relative to colleges.
      - wagwang 1y ago
        I've heard similar arguments 1) if they were effective then we wouldnt see millions of students jumping into 60k a year private institutions 2) I don't buy this at all, I think students mostly select based on prestige. Academic rigor and research opportunities are mildly correlated to this but def not what high schoolers and their parents index on
LarsDu88 1y ago
When America was founded, universities were basically Bible colleges. With the enlightenment, came enlightenment values. During this time, study of Greek and Latin were practically standard. With the coming of industrialization, many adopted the German model of education and became glorified trade schools for the industrial age, churning out classics majors and engineers in equal measure. Post WW2 with Vannevar Bush's influence, American universities became institutions of research and a crucial part of the military industrial complex. Finally, with the advent of television, college football became immensely profitable sources of funding for many colleges and universities as well as a huge attraction source for alumni donations. You say Universities are a clusterfuck, but in reality they have simply evolved with the times, and hence carry a lot of cultural baggage. I don't think that's a bad thing.
- wagwang 1y ago
  It's time to be unburdened by what has been and sharply divide the vocational school and the higher learning/research track like most other first world countries. It's very cruel imo to send mediocre students (who likely won't produce any meaningful research) down research paths while they drown in debt. The state is complicit in this too by guarantee'ing the loans. And btw, I don't deny that there is value in intermingling vocational studies and cutting edge research - it very much makes sense for some STEM disciplines, but that's the exception not the rule imo.
  - LarsDu88 1y ago
    You think Harvard is a vocational school? Or Columbia, or Stanford, or Princeton for that matter? You think parents like to shell out money presuming their kids are "mediocre"? The elite schools are still elite schools. They just do cutting edge research now... research originally intended to win a thermonuclear WW3. Their humanities departments of these schools may very well still also stuffed with academics influenced by Soviet active-measures campaigns from the cold-war which actively seek to undermine the power of American institutions to win that long settled conflict. The agricultural colleges of the 19th century now do research and have football teams now. American Universities are incredible powerhouses of research. The impact of research efficacy is power law distributed, just like youtube influences, and American wealth. A lot of people in the tech industry seem to be jaded by Universities due to the fact that they've gotten outrageously expensive compared to the median income, that for the past 15 years you can make easier money doing webservices than Greek literature, and the majority of universities are not Harvard or MIT. But you can't deny the enormous contributions to society from American universities. Many people we hold in high regard started off as "mediocre" students. And the truth is there are many colleges and universities in America that are vocational schools. They just don't want to admit it. How many community colleges in the states are really preparing kids to become nobel laureates? The anti-university sentiment is just another offshoot of the anti-elitism (and perhaps anti-intellectualism) running through American society today... a natural consequence of the situation where you have massively skewed wealth distribution and massively skewed success outcomes from that power law distribution I mentioned earlier.
jaccola 1y ago
Ironically, I think the biggest dissonance is between two terms you grouped together: "learning/training". What universities were (and still are) really great at is being a place for intense learning. What 99% of their customers now want is vocational training to get a well paying job. Exactly because of the status/prestige (+ government incentives + being very far from a free market), customers that don't really want what the university is selling are attending in droves.
- gota 1y ago
  Of varying importance for different groups/cohorts - going to college because it the rite of passage for adulthood.
- Henchman21 1y ago
  Related to this is the death of vocational studies at the high school level. EVERYTHING is "college prep" and there is no other course. Huge numbers of people could avoid universities if we offered better vocational training.
  - al_borland 1y ago
    I went to school in a more rural area. In high school we had the option to spend half the day at the vocational school in the next town over learning the trades. Our senior year they also had an assembly to tell us all that statistics were against us in college and only 15% would graduate, so we shouldn’t try. My nephews are about to enter that same high school about 25 years later. From what I’ve gleaned, they still have the program for vocational training. I think the kids went on a field trip there is middle school.
  - bsder 1y ago
    > Huge numbers of people could avoid universities if we offered better vocational training. Could they? This is a perennial HN complaint; however, the salaries for jobs that vocational schools would train your for show very little pressure to increase. That doesn't indicate some mythical pent up demand that a bunch of new vocational students could slot into. Most people are going to college because they want to avoid working at the equivalent of an Amazon warehouse. If you can give them a way to do that, they'll happily skip going to a university.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

Universities in the US are a giant clusterfuck because they confuse themselves between centers of status/prestige, a place for learning/training, and a semi-professional sports team.

senderista 1y ago

Not sure why you're getting downvotes; I think this is quite accurate.

riskassessment 1y ago
They did not mention research which is like the defining characteristic of a university. They seem to be condescendingly grouping research into the category of "status/prestige"
- wagwang 1y ago
  I was thinking of it from what an undergrad is trying to get out of college, graduate+ is an entirely different scene admittedly
  - riskassessment 1y ago
    Sure but I think it's an oversimplification to say that universities are unfocused and that this lack of focus is a problem because 1) the alternative already exists (smaller colleges are typically focused primarily on education with less research and less sports) 2) Universities doing a lot of things (including offering undergrads connections to research labs) is one of the main reasons that they are an attractive option relative to colleges.
    - wagwang 1y ago
      I've heard similar arguments 1) if they were effective then we wouldnt see millions of students jumping into 60k a year private institutions 2) I don't buy this at all, I think students mostly select based on prestige. Academic rigor and research opportunities are mildly correlated to this but def not what high schoolers and their parents index on

LarsDu88 1y ago

When America was founded, universities were basically Bible colleges. With the enlightenment, came enlightenment values. During this time, study of Greek and Latin were practically standard. With the coming of industrialization, many adopted the German model of education and became glorified trade schools for the industrial age, churning out classics majors and engineers in equal measure. Post WW2 with Vannevar Bush's influence, American universities became institutions of research and a crucial part of the military industrial complex. Finally, with the advent of television, college football became immensely profitable sources of funding for many colleges and universities as well as a huge attraction source for alumni donations. You say Universities are a clusterfuck, but in reality they have simply evolved with the times, and hence carry a lot of cultural baggage. I don't think that's a bad thing.

wagwang 1y ago
It's time to be unburdened by what has been and sharply divide the vocational school and the higher learning/research track like most other first world countries. It's very cruel imo to send mediocre students (who likely won't produce any meaningful research) down research paths while they drown in debt. The state is complicit in this too by guarantee'ing the loans. And btw, I don't deny that there is value in intermingling vocational studies and cutting edge research - it very much makes sense for some STEM disciplines, but that's the exception not the rule imo.
- LarsDu88 1y ago
  You think Harvard is a vocational school? Or Columbia, or Stanford, or Princeton for that matter? You think parents like to shell out money presuming their kids are "mediocre"? The elite schools are still elite schools. They just do cutting edge research now... research originally intended to win a thermonuclear WW3. Their humanities departments of these schools may very well still also stuffed with academics influenced by Soviet active-measures campaigns from the cold-war which actively seek to undermine the power of American institutions to win that long settled conflict. The agricultural colleges of the 19th century now do research and have football teams now. American Universities are incredible powerhouses of research. The impact of research efficacy is power law distributed, just like youtube influences, and American wealth. A lot of people in the tech industry seem to be jaded by Universities due to the fact that they've gotten outrageously expensive compared to the median income, that for the past 15 years you can make easier money doing webservices than Greek literature, and the majority of universities are not Harvard or MIT. But you can't deny the enormous contributions to society from American universities. Many people we hold in high regard started off as "mediocre" students. And the truth is there are many colleges and universities in America that are vocational schools. They just don't want to admit it. How many community colleges in the states are really preparing kids to become nobel laureates? The anti-university sentiment is just another offshoot of the anti-elitism (and perhaps anti-intellectualism) running through American society today... a natural consequence of the situation where you have massively skewed wealth distribution and massively skewed success outcomes from that power law distribution I mentioned earlier.

jaccola 1y ago

Ironically, I think the biggest dissonance is between two terms you grouped together: "learning/training". What universities were (and still are) really great at is being a place for intense learning. What 99% of their customers now want is vocational training to get a well paying job. Exactly because of the status/prestige (+ government incentives + being very far from a free market), customers that don't really want what the university is selling are attending in droves.

gota 1y ago
Of varying importance for different groups/cohorts - going to college because it the rite of passage for adulthood.
Henchman21 1y ago
Related to this is the death of vocational studies at the high school level. EVERYTHING is "college prep" and there is no other course. Huge numbers of people could avoid universities if we offered better vocational training.
- al_borland 1y ago
  I went to school in a more rural area. In high school we had the option to spend half the day at the vocational school in the next town over learning the trades. Our senior year they also had an assembly to tell us all that statistics were against us in college and only 15% would graduate, so we shouldn’t try. My nephews are about to enter that same high school about 25 years later. From what I’ve gleaned, they still have the program for vocational training. I think the kids went on a field trip there is middle school.
- bsder 1y ago
  > Huge numbers of people could avoid universities if we offered better vocational training. Could they? This is a perennial HN complaint; however, the salaries for jobs that vocational schools would train your for show very little pressure to increase. That doesn't indicate some mythical pent up demand that a bunch of new vocational students could slot into. Most people are going to college because they want to avoid working at the equivalent of an Amazon warehouse. If you can give them a way to do that, they'll happily skip going to a university.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]