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Designers are so out of touch. That whole criticism of Comic Sans is one example. Slowly, I'm coming to the conclusion that designers should never be employed,

Designers are so out of touch. That whole criticism of Comic Sans is one example. Slowly, I'm coming to the conclusion that designers should never be employed, only consulted on a per-project basis. If they sit around 8 hours a day, they end up changing something or the other to justify their existence. But human beings are not used to change at such a rapid cadence. Humans take time to settle into a design and establish patterns of usage.

ho_schi 1y ago
You sound like someone purchasing a new ThinkPad and "Why they added a camera bump? Sticking out of display lid. A thing nobody ask for". followed by "Why the made the base flat. But removed the rounded palm rest? Adding a sharp corner." followed by "Why the removed the dent which allowed to open the display lid, which didn't protruded out of the device?" I appreciate nice design. But if it doesn't follows function, it is harmful. PS: I'm frustrated about the new ThinkPads with a camera bump sticking out of the display. Everybody hates camera bumps. The display lid is broad and provides much space for adding multiple cameras, microphones and sensors of all kind. I know...this topic is about software UI. The change for the sake of the change itself is not beneficial.
tiborsaas 1y ago
Out of all the things, you brought up Comic Sans, which is really hard to defend other than ironic use cases and no, there's no proof either it helps dyslexia. Even if it does, there are also better alternatives in the accessibility space. How many designer friends do you have? Do you know what they do daily? We know your preconception that regardless of company size and product they are just counting beans.
- ehecatl42 1y ago
  Comic Sans has an excellent, unironic, track record as an assistive tool for young kids struggling with dyslexia.
  - tiborsaas 1y ago
    You can do better. This was the first Google result: https://dyslexiefont.com/en/ https://dyslexiefont.com/en/ But there are plenty more. Why settle on the worst one?
    - entuno 1y ago
      Are any of those other "better" alternatives installed by default on Windows?
    - moooo99 1y ago
      Maybe because it’s that Comic sans is widely available and preinstalled on many systems as a „good enough“ option while others are very costly very quickly
    - nosioptar 1y ago
      As a dyslexic, Comic sans is 10,000 times better than the font you linked.
- vijucat 1y ago
  > which is really hard to defend Can you please tell me your thoughts on how it is "hard to defend"? My thoughts: How can designers criticize the use of Comic Sans? If users use it where it's connotations (childlike, casual) are appropriate, such as birthday parties, and love it, who are designers to comment on it? I find this indefensible, as if design sensibilities have a foundation very much like mathematics or physics and there is a clearly Universal litmus test of good design and bad design. There isn't. In fact, arbitrary mores of fashion such as "Comic Sans is uncool" are the very tell that design has foundations as strong as a piece of string in the wind. The disdain for Comic Sans reeks of elitism, where designers gatekeep "good taste" based on arbitrary conventions.
  - levmiseri 1y ago
    Designers don't critize Comic Sans's usage when it's appropriate. It's when it's not. Like a funeral service's signage. Or a lawyer. And the massive amount of such objectively wrong usage in the wild is where you see designers crying about it.
    - thesuitonym 1y ago
      Sure, but then why pick on Comic Sans? Lots of fonts get used inappropriately.
      - vanviegen 1y ago
        It's just the most common example, as thanks to Microsoft it comes preinstalled on just about any computer. Given the typically short list of fonts to pick from, many people will (would?) pick Comic Sans when they want their text to look a bit 'different'. However, I do agree that making fun of people picking the wrong font is a bit elitist. At least Comic Sans is easy to read, so one could do worse.
        Doxin 1y ago
        I'm not sure if complaining about using a jaunty font on a WWII death row cell door explaining how many Jews passed through that cell is elitist at all. Real example. Using comic sans there is tone deaf at best. Of course comic sans specifically has turned into a bit of a meme so now you'll see all sorts of people complaining about it getting used anywhere, which is a lot sillier, but still not elitist I don't think.
- immibis 1y ago
  Comic Sans was proven to be objectively easier to read. That's why it was designed.
  - adastra22 1y ago
    It was designed to mimic comic book lettering. But yes, comic book lettering is done a specific way for a reason.
constantcrying 1y ago
Designer right now value aesthetics over usability. If your design starts out from the question "how do we make this more user friendly", you will arrive at a totally different answer than when you ask "how do we make this look like everything else, but also stand out". Aesthetics are essentially worthless for a user interface and should always be a secondary concern. But clearly designers have elevated aesthetics over usability, hence the numerous and constant redesigns of everything. If you care about usability you know that a redesign necessarily comes at a great cost, since you are breaking many of the mental connections of your users. It is only justifiable if there is some serious gain by doing that.
- mrweasel 1y ago
  > Aesthetics are essentially worthless for a user interface and should always be a secondary concern. That is one of my random thoughts: Windows could have kept the Windows 95 look and been perfectly usable. Sure there might have been a need for certain UI tweaks, but for most office/home use there was no reason to change it. The whole "let's make it friendly" is annoying. If it's a tool make it practical. If you need to write a manual because of that, then please, go right a head and do that.
- floating-io 1y ago
  The problem is that design tends to be driven by the marketing department...
levmiseri 1y ago
[flagged]
- DiggyJohnson 1y ago
  I'm not sure how that is relevant. Pulling up someone's unrelated comments because you disagree with the current discussion is discouraged at best.
- floating-io 1y ago
  Do you think that "being competent at design" is the only requirement for designers? I would say that it's more important to be competent in determining how design is going to be understood and used by users in their individual workflows. Few are more competent to judge that than the users themselves. I'm pretty sure most folks have seen and experienced the negative impacts of designers changing things for the sake of change (or to justify their paychecks).
  - levmiseri 1y ago
    Being competent in determining how design is going to be understood and used by users IS being competent at design. There is a massive amount of bad design out there — made by designers. There is a large amount of bad software implementations. By programmers. And awful chairs, food, and ...
- tomhow 1y ago
  Please don't dig up historical comments in order to criticize someone like this. We should be able to respond to the argument presented in a comment or subthread in its standalone context.
seanmcdirmid 1y ago
Most designers don't do that, and are plenty overworked in most organizations that they don't have time to gratuitously fiddle with new UI trends anyways. In fact, these kind of things usually come from non-designer VPs or SVPs who are trying to "spice" up the product much to the chagrin of designers on staff (I'm married to a UXD and this comes up often).

ho_schi 1y ago

You sound like someone purchasing a new ThinkPad and "Why they added a camera bump? Sticking out of display lid. A thing nobody ask for". followed by "Why the made the base flat. But removed the rounded palm rest? Adding a sharp corner." followed by "Why the removed the dent which allowed to open the display lid, which didn't protruded out of the device?" I appreciate nice design. But if it doesn't follows function, it is harmful. PS: I'm frustrated about the new ThinkPads with a camera bump sticking out of the display. Everybody hates camera bumps. The display lid is broad and provides much space for adding multiple cameras, microphones and sensors of all kind. I know...this topic is about software UI. The change for the sake of the change itself is not beneficial.

tiborsaas 1y ago

Out of all the things, you brought up Comic Sans, which is really hard to defend other than ironic use cases and no, there's no proof either it helps dyslexia. Even if it does, there are also better alternatives in the accessibility space. How many designer friends do you have? Do you know what they do daily? We know your preconception that regardless of company size and product they are just counting beans.

ehecatl42 1y ago
Comic Sans has an excellent, unironic, track record as an assistive tool for young kids struggling with dyslexia.
- tiborsaas 1y ago
  You can do better. This was the first Google result: https://dyslexiefont.com/en/ https://dyslexiefont.com/en/ But there are plenty more. Why settle on the worst one?
  - entuno 1y ago
    Are any of those other "better" alternatives installed by default on Windows?
  - moooo99 1y ago
    Maybe because it’s that Comic sans is widely available and preinstalled on many systems as a „good enough“ option while others are very costly very quickly
  - nosioptar 1y ago
    As a dyslexic, Comic sans is 10,000 times better than the font you linked.
vijucat 1y ago
> which is really hard to defend Can you please tell me your thoughts on how it is "hard to defend"? My thoughts: How can designers criticize the use of Comic Sans? If users use it where it's connotations (childlike, casual) are appropriate, such as birthday parties, and love it, who are designers to comment on it? I find this indefensible, as if design sensibilities have a foundation very much like mathematics or physics and there is a clearly Universal litmus test of good design and bad design. There isn't. In fact, arbitrary mores of fashion such as "Comic Sans is uncool" are the very tell that design has foundations as strong as a piece of string in the wind. The disdain for Comic Sans reeks of elitism, where designers gatekeep "good taste" based on arbitrary conventions.
- levmiseri 1y ago
  Designers don't critize Comic Sans's usage when it's appropriate. It's when it's not. Like a funeral service's signage. Or a lawyer. And the massive amount of such objectively wrong usage in the wild is where you see designers crying about it.
  - thesuitonym 1y ago
    Sure, but then why pick on Comic Sans? Lots of fonts get used inappropriately.
    - vanviegen 1y ago
      It's just the most common example, as thanks to Microsoft it comes preinstalled on just about any computer. Given the typically short list of fonts to pick from, many people will (would?) pick Comic Sans when they want their text to look a bit 'different'. However, I do agree that making fun of people picking the wrong font is a bit elitist. At least Comic Sans is easy to read, so one could do worse.
      - Doxin 1y ago
        I'm not sure if complaining about using a jaunty font on a WWII death row cell door explaining how many Jews passed through that cell is elitist at all. Real example. Using comic sans there is tone deaf at best. Of course comic sans specifically has turned into a bit of a meme so now you'll see all sorts of people complaining about it getting used anywhere, which is a lot sillier, but still not elitist I don't think.
immibis 1y ago
Comic Sans was proven to be objectively easier to read. That's why it was designed.
- adastra22 1y ago
  It was designed to mimic comic book lettering. But yes, comic book lettering is done a specific way for a reason.

constantcrying 1y ago

Designer right now value aesthetics over usability. If your design starts out from the question "how do we make this more user friendly", you will arrive at a totally different answer than when you ask "how do we make this look like everything else, but also stand out". Aesthetics are essentially worthless for a user interface and should always be a secondary concern. But clearly designers have elevated aesthetics over usability, hence the numerous and constant redesigns of everything. If you care about usability you know that a redesign necessarily comes at a great cost, since you are breaking many of the mental connections of your users. It is only justifiable if there is some serious gain by doing that.

mrweasel 1y ago
> Aesthetics are essentially worthless for a user interface and should always be a secondary concern. That is one of my random thoughts: Windows could have kept the Windows 95 look and been perfectly usable. Sure there might have been a need for certain UI tweaks, but for most office/home use there was no reason to change it. The whole "let's make it friendly" is annoying. If it's a tool make it practical. If you need to write a manual because of that, then please, go right a head and do that.
floating-io 1y ago
The problem is that design tends to be driven by the marketing department...

levmiseri 1y ago

[flagged]

DiggyJohnson 1y ago
I'm not sure how that is relevant. Pulling up someone's unrelated comments because you disagree with the current discussion is discouraged at best.
floating-io 1y ago
Do you think that "being competent at design" is the only requirement for designers? I would say that it's more important to be competent in determining how design is going to be understood and used by users in their individual workflows. Few are more competent to judge that than the users themselves. I'm pretty sure most folks have seen and experienced the negative impacts of designers changing things for the sake of change (or to justify their paychecks).
- levmiseri 1y ago
  Being competent in determining how design is going to be understood and used by users IS being competent at design. There is a massive amount of bad design out there — made by designers. There is a large amount of bad software implementations. By programmers. And awful chairs, food, and ...
tomhow 1y ago
Please don't dig up historical comments in order to criticize someone like this. We should be able to respond to the argument presented in a comment or subthread in its standalone context.

seanmcdirmid 1y ago

Most designers don't do that, and are plenty overworked in most organizations that they don't have time to gratuitously fiddle with new UI trends anyways. In fact, these kind of things usually come from non-designer VPs or SVPs who are trying to "spice" up the product much to the chagrin of designers on staff (I'm married to a UXD and this comes up often).