5 ms·

HN may have less features, but do we even need them? I do not think it makes it worse because of that. You could call it minimalistic, which puts it into a more

HN may have less features, but do we even need them? I do not think it makes it worse because of that. You could call it minimalistic, which puts it into a more positive light. :) Edit: or as someone else who has phrased it better: "less is more".

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
dotancohen 1y ago
I think that the classical phrasing is "less is more". At least, that's how my bash pager has it in the manpage.
- johnisgood 1y ago
  You are right!
jrockway 1y ago
I liked the "friends" and "foes" system that Slashdot had, though I would say generally the "foes" here just get banned which is convenient. I also thought Slashdot's moderation system was kind of fun. I am not sure it was useful but I enjoyed the annotations (+5 Funny when serious, +5 Insightful when inciteful, etc.) Meta-moderation was also neat?
- KerrAvon 1y ago
  In practice, the Slashdot moderation system was ridiculously easy to game. You could adjust your viewpoints to subtly praise Linux and denigrate Windows and be assured of a higher rating.
  - vid 1y ago
    Because people agreed with you? Why is that a problem?
    - fragmede 1y ago
      Because that leads to groupthink, which stifles critical thinking and leads to poor decision-making. Ideally we'd have honest debate instead of ignoring warning signs, dismissing alternative viewpoints, and failing to thoroughly evaluate risks. This leads to overconfidence which can cause blind spots leading to catastrophic failures. We can't adapt to new information or actually learn from our mistakes if our shared groupthink says oh that was bound to happen. We'd stop innovating entirely. In terms of Slashdot groupthink, no one uses (used) Windows and Microsoft was about to fall, but when looking outside of that at computer sales vs counted Linux installs, the picture was and is still very different. The reverse happened on the server, but Nadella was able to see outside the groupthink bringing Azure to the success it enjoys today.
      - jachee 1y ago
        Where’d this approach to “groupthink” come from? Did you formulate this all on your own? ETA: obligatory: /s
      - wredcoll 1y ago
        What a pile of meaningless buzzwords. Slashdot's moderation system didn't lead people to think "no one used windows", the userbase just didn't like microsoft. Beyond that, having to re-debate every single idea every single time it's brought up is inefficient to the point of uselessness. We, as individuals, don't have time to verify every single theory from first principles, so we rely on tools like "moderation" as a heuristic to make progress.
        59nadir 1y ago
        Eh, I think he brings up a pretty good point but I wouldn't say HN is any better. People here think that MacOS has high usage numbers and iPhones are the most used phone, when that's not the case. There are also a few very, very misguided ideas about software development that definitely are over-represented on HN in large part due to the (apparently, according to polls) very inexperienced nature of most HN visitors and the things they tend to work on (low-skill/low-knowledge, "high-in-their-mind"-velocity work). HN has some very clear bubbles that probably wouldn't happen without a popularity system tied to its comments and submissions; maybe the janitorial duty of removing spam and so on is enough for a page like this. I'm not sure I see the merits of upvotes and downvotes at this point.
  - Shorel 1y ago
    I think the problem with Slashdot was that "Funny" was higher rated than "Interesting" or "Insightful", and it made the site a clown circus. I'm not against memes and jokes, I like them. But I also like some actual intelligent discussion in between. And that's why right now I visit Hacker News and it's been many years since I used Slashdot.
- AtlasBarfed 1y ago
  Score 5 funnies absolutely ruined /dots discussions
  - Thiez 1y ago
    Slashdot allowed you to configure scoring, so you could assign 0 or even negative points to 'funny'.
- 0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
  I'm a little too young to remember Slashdot. It would be interesting to see an informal ethnography of those older discussion sites/Usenet/etc. from people who remember that stuff. Online communities deserve more study.
  - jamesrcole 1y ago
    You talk about it as if doesn't exist anymore. If you're not aware, it still exists.
    - ChoGGi 1y ago
      In some sense it doesn't exist anymore. At the very least, the withered corpse is a far cry from what it once was.
  - thijson 1y ago
    I always thought that moderation is a little high handed. Instead, individuals should choose what they see or don't see via a local filter that they've trained over time. I used to filter spam out of my email inbox that way, it worked pretty good.
ksec 1y ago
Dark Mode. And Follow User would be two feature I have been using for years with other tools.
- jedberg 1y ago
  Follow user is antithetical to the idea of HN -- content should be upvoted because of what it says, not who said it. But I agree dark mode would be nice.
  - skydhash 1y ago
    I believe HN's HTML structure is simple enough to overwrite with custom CSS on the browser end.
    - jedberg 1y ago
      Sure, but I use at least five different browsers for HN, some on my phone. That’s a huge pain. Being able to check a profile box would be a lot easier.
      - freedomben 1y ago
        Genuinely curious, why do you use so many different browsers for HN?
        jedberg 1y ago
        Fair question. I use HN Replies, which emails me when people reply to me. On my computer, if I click the link in the email, it opens in Chrome. But on my computer my normal browser for HN is Safari. I use separate browsers for different things on my computer, so Safari is for HN and reddit, Chrome is for Google apps, like gmail etc., and Firefox for everything else. So sometimes I also get into HN via Firefox if I'm there an happen to type the URL or get a link. Then on the phone, Safari is again the default browser, but if I click a link from the gmail app it opens in mobile Chrome. So to use a plugin to change anything, I'd have to have the plugin on all five browsers.
lo_zamoyski 1y ago
The "tech progressive" mindset cannot comprehend the idea that something cannot be improved or shouldn't be "enhanced". It is too close to the abyss.
- pixl97 1y ago
  Hmm, I have an idea for HN on the next April 1st.
- freedomben 1y ago
  Also, don't want to overlook the fact that people have to justify their jobs. If you are employed as a designer, and you were to tell your employer that The app is in good shape and doesn't need any design work, you are putting yourself out of a job. Now scale that up to an entire team of designers, or even a department with a chief designer, and you have a bunch of people. Primary incentive is to continually change things. I don't think it's a coincidence that bigger apps from companies that are big enough to hire Full-Time designers are constantly churning their UI. I don't mean this against designer specifically. I've seen plenty of software engineers that do the same thing. Hell, I've caught myself doing the same thing. It's just part of being human, but recognizing our human nature and not doing dumb things because of it is an ideal to shoot for in my opinion.
EasyMark 1y ago
I want a pickup truck that is designed like HN. The slate may be the answer
- cgio 1y ago
  A minimalist pickup truck could be a bicycle. Depends on whether you really need a truck at all.
  - quantadev 1y ago
    I mean you could technically balance a sheet of plywood on your back on a bicycle, but it seems like it would become impractical at any speed above 30mph just due to aerodynamic...uh...lift.
    - c22 1y ago
      Last time I did this I rested the sheet good on one pedal and rode side-saddle. It worked all right. YMMV--helps to be going downhill...
  - xarope 1y ago
    or perhaps, from a space and utility perpective, a cargo trike? I don't think a bike could handle a desk, even a foldable/collapsed one from ikea, whereas a cargo trike probably could.
    - 71bw 1y ago
      And then you're like the meme that popped up recently somewhere on Twitter about some guy using his cargo bike to move bricks. Only took him 12 hours and 4 trips to do something anyone sane would do in 1 hour and 1 trip
  - freedomben 1y ago
    This seems like a relatively bad approach in general. An even more minimalist bicycle can just be your legs, depends on whether you really need a bicycle at all. A more minimalist pair of shoes would be sandals, or even more minimalist is just going barefoot and building callouses on your soles. You also don't really need to look stylish, so a more minimalist set of clothing can just be a sheet that you wrap around yourself. I don't find this to be a useful line of thinking.
killerstorm 1y ago
I'd like some markdown support: * Triple ticks for code ``` * Bullet lists Two spaces to mono space is somewhat offensive
- int_19h 1y ago
  The single most annoying thing is the inability to somehow use a single line break to start a new line. It makes it very tedious to copy/paste things (that are not code) when quoting them.
- Shorel 1y ago
  Textile is the syntax of a Jedi Developer. Not as clumsy or random as a Markdown; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
jorvi 1y ago
Dark mode. Sure, Dark Reader exists but many mobile browsers don't support it. Annoyingly enough it's been talked about for years but it never gets implemented, despite only three colors really needing a swap: background to dark sepia or just dark gray, and text to white and off-white.
- throwaway2037 1y ago
  If only colour swap is required, can you use a Greasemonkey script?
  - jorvi 1y ago
    And how would you propose running Greasemonkey on a mobile browser?
- exitb 1y ago
  You need to add controls, as some people would like it set up differently than their OS. You need to store the setting. You need to consider people without accounts. You need to put a bit on thought into the color scheme, as this website is after all known for its color. In the end, many people will complain, regardless of how well you do.
  - jorvi 1y ago
    I can virtually guarantee that the amount of people getting annoyed at being flashbanged by HN is larger than the amount of people that would complain about a dark mode. For users without an account you just stick to prefers-color-scheme. For users with an account you add a setting 'disable dark mode' Dark Reader has autodetection so those users won't be a problem either. And if you really wanna keep to the identity of the site, the top bar doesn't even really need a color swap. It really is less of a conundrum than you think.
  - WorldMaker 1y ago
    > You need to add controls, as some people would like it set up differently than their OS. The Browser also has controls. Good Browsers let you set your browser-wide choice differently from your OS-wide choice. Great Browsers let you pick per-site overrides directly, as a standard user setting in a consistent location in browser controls. I realize a lot of UX designers have come to much prefer the "add more controls" approach over the "teach a person to fish" / understand how your OS and browser controls work as the user of the site approach. I realize why a lot of UX designers will always prefer that approach, because teaching people is hard and it is easier to cut complaints off at the pass than answer complaints with "use your browser's settings". But seriously, it should be fine to release a dark mode in 2025 that only responds to `prefers-color-scheme: dark` and leaves it to users to understand their OS and Browser tools. It irks me a lot more when sites like Wikipedia and Bing and Google ignore `prefers-color-scheme: dark` by default and makes you dig for some dumb website-specific control (that's in a different place on every website) just to set it to whatever they call "System default" that means "trust the Browser's prefers-color-scheme, I know what I'm doing". UX designers have taken something that should be natural and automatic and made it more complex and more confusing just because a small handful of users complain that they don't understand their OS and Browser Settings tools.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

dotancohen 1y ago

I think that the classical phrasing is "less is more". At least, that's how my bash pager has it in the manpage.

johnisgood 1y ago
You are right!

jrockway 1y ago

I liked the "friends" and "foes" system that Slashdot had, though I would say generally the "foes" here just get banned which is convenient. I also thought Slashdot's moderation system was kind of fun. I am not sure it was useful but I enjoyed the annotations (+5 Funny when serious, +5 Insightful when inciteful, etc.) Meta-moderation was also neat?

KerrAvon 1y ago
In practice, the Slashdot moderation system was ridiculously easy to game. You could adjust your viewpoints to subtly praise Linux and denigrate Windows and be assured of a higher rating.
- vid 1y ago
  Because people agreed with you? Why is that a problem?
  - fragmede 1y ago
    Because that leads to groupthink, which stifles critical thinking and leads to poor decision-making. Ideally we'd have honest debate instead of ignoring warning signs, dismissing alternative viewpoints, and failing to thoroughly evaluate risks. This leads to overconfidence which can cause blind spots leading to catastrophic failures. We can't adapt to new information or actually learn from our mistakes if our shared groupthink says oh that was bound to happen. We'd stop innovating entirely. In terms of Slashdot groupthink, no one uses (used) Windows and Microsoft was about to fall, but when looking outside of that at computer sales vs counted Linux installs, the picture was and is still very different. The reverse happened on the server, but Nadella was able to see outside the groupthink bringing Azure to the success it enjoys today.
    - jachee 1y ago
      Where’d this approach to “groupthink” come from? Did you formulate this all on your own? ETA: obligatory: /s
    - wredcoll 1y ago
      What a pile of meaningless buzzwords. Slashdot's moderation system didn't lead people to think "no one used windows", the userbase just didn't like microsoft. Beyond that, having to re-debate every single idea every single time it's brought up is inefficient to the point of uselessness. We, as individuals, don't have time to verify every single theory from first principles, so we rely on tools like "moderation" as a heuristic to make progress.
      - 59nadir 1y ago
        Eh, I think he brings up a pretty good point but I wouldn't say HN is any better. People here think that MacOS has high usage numbers and iPhones are the most used phone, when that's not the case. There are also a few very, very misguided ideas about software development that definitely are over-represented on HN in large part due to the (apparently, according to polls) very inexperienced nature of most HN visitors and the things they tend to work on (low-skill/low-knowledge, "high-in-their-mind"-velocity work). HN has some very clear bubbles that probably wouldn't happen without a popularity system tied to its comments and submissions; maybe the janitorial duty of removing spam and so on is enough for a page like this. I'm not sure I see the merits of upvotes and downvotes at this point.
- Shorel 1y ago
  I think the problem with Slashdot was that "Funny" was higher rated than "Interesting" or "Insightful", and it made the site a clown circus. I'm not against memes and jokes, I like them. But I also like some actual intelligent discussion in between. And that's why right now I visit Hacker News and it's been many years since I used Slashdot.
AtlasBarfed 1y ago
Score 5 funnies absolutely ruined /dots discussions
- Thiez 1y ago
  Slashdot allowed you to configure scoring, so you could assign 0 or even negative points to 'funny'.
0xDEAFBEAD 1y ago
I'm a little too young to remember Slashdot. It would be interesting to see an informal ethnography of those older discussion sites/Usenet/etc. from people who remember that stuff. Online communities deserve more study.
- jamesrcole 1y ago
  You talk about it as if doesn't exist anymore. If you're not aware, it still exists.
  - ChoGGi 1y ago
    In some sense it doesn't exist anymore. At the very least, the withered corpse is a far cry from what it once was.
- thijson 1y ago
  I always thought that moderation is a little high handed. Instead, individuals should choose what they see or don't see via a local filter that they've trained over time. I used to filter spam out of my email inbox that way, it worked pretty good.

ksec 1y ago

Dark Mode. And Follow User would be two feature I have been using for years with other tools.

jedberg 1y ago
Follow user is antithetical to the idea of HN -- content should be upvoted because of what it says, not who said it. But I agree dark mode would be nice.
- skydhash 1y ago
  I believe HN's HTML structure is simple enough to overwrite with custom CSS on the browser end.
  - jedberg 1y ago
    Sure, but I use at least five different browsers for HN, some on my phone. That’s a huge pain. Being able to check a profile box would be a lot easier.
    - freedomben 1y ago
      Genuinely curious, why do you use so many different browsers for HN?
      - jedberg 1y ago
        Fair question. I use HN Replies, which emails me when people reply to me. On my computer, if I click the link in the email, it opens in Chrome. But on my computer my normal browser for HN is Safari. I use separate browsers for different things on my computer, so Safari is for HN and reddit, Chrome is for Google apps, like gmail etc., and Firefox for everything else. So sometimes I also get into HN via Firefox if I'm there an happen to type the URL or get a link. Then on the phone, Safari is again the default browser, but if I click a link from the gmail app it opens in mobile Chrome. So to use a plugin to change anything, I'd have to have the plugin on all five browsers.

lo_zamoyski 1y ago

The "tech progressive" mindset cannot comprehend the idea that something cannot be improved or shouldn't be "enhanced". It is too close to the abyss.

pixl97 1y ago
Hmm, I have an idea for HN on the next April 1st.
freedomben 1y ago
Also, don't want to overlook the fact that people have to justify their jobs. If you are employed as a designer, and you were to tell your employer that The app is in good shape and doesn't need any design work, you are putting yourself out of a job. Now scale that up to an entire team of designers, or even a department with a chief designer, and you have a bunch of people. Primary incentive is to continually change things. I don't think it's a coincidence that bigger apps from companies that are big enough to hire Full-Time designers are constantly churning their UI. I don't mean this against designer specifically. I've seen plenty of software engineers that do the same thing. Hell, I've caught myself doing the same thing. It's just part of being human, but recognizing our human nature and not doing dumb things because of it is an ideal to shoot for in my opinion.

EasyMark 1y ago

I want a pickup truck that is designed like HN. The slate may be the answer

cgio 1y ago
A minimalist pickup truck could be a bicycle. Depends on whether you really need a truck at all.
- quantadev 1y ago
  I mean you could technically balance a sheet of plywood on your back on a bicycle, but it seems like it would become impractical at any speed above 30mph just due to aerodynamic...uh...lift.
  - c22 1y ago
    Last time I did this I rested the sheet good on one pedal and rode side-saddle. It worked all right. YMMV--helps to be going downhill...
- xarope 1y ago
  or perhaps, from a space and utility perpective, a cargo trike? I don't think a bike could handle a desk, even a foldable/collapsed one from ikea, whereas a cargo trike probably could.
  - 71bw 1y ago
    And then you're like the meme that popped up recently somewhere on Twitter about some guy using his cargo bike to move bricks. Only took him 12 hours and 4 trips to do something anyone sane would do in 1 hour and 1 trip
- freedomben 1y ago
  This seems like a relatively bad approach in general. An even more minimalist bicycle can just be your legs, depends on whether you really need a bicycle at all. A more minimalist pair of shoes would be sandals, or even more minimalist is just going barefoot and building callouses on your soles. You also don't really need to look stylish, so a more minimalist set of clothing can just be a sheet that you wrap around yourself. I don't find this to be a useful line of thinking.

killerstorm 1y ago

I'd like some markdown support: * Triple ticks for code ``` * Bullet lists Two spaces to mono space is somewhat offensive

int_19h 1y ago
The single most annoying thing is the inability to somehow use a single line break to start a new line. It makes it very tedious to copy/paste things (that are not code) when quoting them.
Shorel 1y ago
Textile is the syntax of a Jedi Developer. Not as clumsy or random as a Markdown; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.

jorvi 1y ago

Dark mode. Sure, Dark Reader exists but many mobile browsers don't support it. Annoyingly enough it's been talked about for years but it never gets implemented, despite only three colors really needing a swap: background to dark sepia or just dark gray, and text to white and off-white.

throwaway2037 1y ago
If only colour swap is required, can you use a Greasemonkey script?
- jorvi 1y ago
  And how would you propose running Greasemonkey on a mobile browser?
exitb 1y ago
You need to add controls, as some people would like it set up differently than their OS. You need to store the setting. You need to consider people without accounts. You need to put a bit on thought into the color scheme, as this website is after all known for its color. In the end, many people will complain, regardless of how well you do.
- jorvi 1y ago
  I can virtually guarantee that the amount of people getting annoyed at being flashbanged by HN is larger than the amount of people that would complain about a dark mode. For users without an account you just stick to prefers-color-scheme. For users with an account you add a setting 'disable dark mode' Dark Reader has autodetection so those users won't be a problem either. And if you really wanna keep to the identity of the site, the top bar doesn't even really need a color swap. It really is less of a conundrum than you think.
- WorldMaker 1y ago
  > You need to add controls, as some people would like it set up differently than their OS. The Browser also has controls. Good Browsers let you set your browser-wide choice differently from your OS-wide choice. Great Browsers let you pick per-site overrides directly, as a standard user setting in a consistent location in browser controls. I realize a lot of UX designers have come to much prefer the "add more controls" approach over the "teach a person to fish" / understand how your OS and browser controls work as the user of the site approach. I realize why a lot of UX designers will always prefer that approach, because teaching people is hard and it is easier to cut complaints off at the pass than answer complaints with "use your browser's settings". But seriously, it should be fine to release a dark mode in 2025 that only responds to `prefers-color-scheme: dark` and leaves it to users to understand their OS and Browser tools. It irks me a lot more when sites like Wikipedia and Bing and Google ignore `prefers-color-scheme: dark` by default and makes you dig for some dumb website-specific control (that's in a different place on every website) just to set it to whatever they call "System default" that means "trust the Browser's prefers-color-scheme, I know what I'm doing". UX designers have taken something that should be natural and automatic and made it more complex and more confusing just because a small handful of users complain that they don't understand their OS and Browser Settings tools.