4 ms·

I've never seen a convincing explanation from the laissez-faire neoliberal crowd how their view of the world squares with the fact that all the Asian miracles--

I've never seen a convincing explanation from the laissez-faire neoliberal crowd how their view of the world squares with the fact that all the Asian miracles-- Japan, Taiwan, China, South Korea, Singapore-- involved heavy and widespread state intervention. They generally handwave it away and try to change the subject as quickly as possible.

throwaway13337 1y ago
When you have the blueprint of what to build with a large export market ready to buy, it's easier to plan an economy. Modern economies, unfortunately, don't have that. The capital markets are already mature. What ventures left are uncertain. When governments pick winners there, the pie really doesn't grow. Well regulated fair markets remain the best system in history to find a way forward to grow the pie. Unfortunately, regulators have a habit of becoming captured by winners. The markets become no longer fair. Then real growth stagnates. Nothing works forever.
- DrNosferatu 1y ago
  You mean like integrated circuits?
bpodgursky 1y ago
I mean, the simple answer is that people in Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and China are all poorer than the US and EU. Japan had decades to catch up and failed to do so. The laissez-faire approach gave people happy, low-stress, and materially rich lives. Now, we're in a new era where national industrial capacity will at times take precedence over quality of life, and we have to make tradeoffs. But frankly it wasn't obvious that would happen again — China's policies over the past decade made it a reality.
- philwelch 1y ago
  Taiwan and South Korea are both richer than the EU on aggregate measured by GDP (PPP) per capita. So are Singapore and Hong Kong, but it’s not fair to compare city-states. Even in nominal terms, Taiwan and SK are right in the middle of the EU member states between Slovenia and Czechia.
- JDEW 1y ago
  > The laissez-faire approach gave people happy, low-stress, and materially rich lives. The usual schtick conveniently ignoring the absolute marauding of resources from non-western countries and the effective slave labor extracted from Asia.
  - bpodgursky 1y ago
    You can't wax poetic about the merits about turning your own workforce into "slave labor" (the entire OP point), and then complain about countries buying things produced by the slave labor.
- tokioyoyo 1y ago
  I genuinely think an average person in Japan has "richer" life than a person in NA. No real data points, just vibes. I lived in NA, EU and Japan. It is so relative that, I haven't been able to take GDP per capita statistics seriously. The most awful thing for an average, is the work ethics. But that has been rapidly changing in the last 5 years, I think.
- nl 1y ago
  Japan, Taiwan and SK aren’t noticeably poorer than EU or the US: https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/
- DrNosferatu 1y ago
  You have no idea what you’re talking about: The social safety net and access to basic resources like housing and education in Asian democracies, makes the average citizen there much, much, better well off than the average citizen in the geographical “West”. PS: China is completely different - makes no sense throwing it in the comparison.
barry-cotter 1y ago
> all the Asian miracles-- Japan, Taiwan, China, South Korea, Singapore-- involved heavy and widespread state intervention. Hong Kong didn’t. Counter example disproves rule. It’s really not surprising that people followed a successful model, given that people are fashion followers. See how there was so little variation in COVID response across countries.
- barry-cotter 1y ago
  Poland also didn’t and it’ll surpass Japan in GDP per capita this year.
- jordanb 1y ago
  Hong Kong operated as a highly independent special economic zone for doing business in China (at it was very close to the Shenzhen SEZ). Its success was due to the way China partially opened up, and the role it played as a crossroads into China.
  - barry-cotter 1y ago
    In 1980 when the Shenzhen Special Economic Zone was founded Hong Kong had a GDP per capita of $5,700 as compared to $8,400 for the UK. Hong Kong was a first world country before China opened up for trade. Shenzhen was a fishing village of approximately 30,000 people. Hong Kong was a city state of 5 million. China didn’t become Hong Kong’s main source of imports until 1982.
- nl 1y ago
  HK wasn’t an “Asian Miracle”. It was a trading hub with the benefit of being a British protectorate. That’s very different to the other named countries which built industrial bases.
- DrNosferatu 1y ago
  Hong Kong could only be Hong Kong because others could not: its place as a gateway to China was the driver for economic growth, not the “correctness of neoliberal economic ideas”.
klooney 1y ago
All industry everywhere is government subsidized. Germany has always had auto tariffs, and all of German industry heavily benefited from the long term, very cheap piped natural gas deals with Russia. America's remaining industries are subsidized or protected with significant non trade barriers- medicine, rockets, agriculture, light truck manufacturering, financial services. Software services are the one industry that mostly seems to stand on its own two feet, but there was a ton of nurturing of that in the past, as well as onerous export controls on cryptography.

throwaway13337 1y ago

When you have the blueprint of what to build with a large export market ready to buy, it's easier to plan an economy. Modern economies, unfortunately, don't have that. The capital markets are already mature. What ventures left are uncertain. When governments pick winners there, the pie really doesn't grow. Well regulated fair markets remain the best system in history to find a way forward to grow the pie. Unfortunately, regulators have a habit of becoming captured by winners. The markets become no longer fair. Then real growth stagnates. Nothing works forever.

DrNosferatu 1y ago
You mean like integrated circuits?

bpodgursky 1y ago

I mean, the simple answer is that people in Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and China are all poorer than the US and EU. Japan had decades to catch up and failed to do so. The laissez-faire approach gave people happy, low-stress, and materially rich lives. Now, we're in a new era where national industrial capacity will at times take precedence over quality of life, and we have to make tradeoffs. But frankly it wasn't obvious that would happen again — China's policies over the past decade made it a reality.

philwelch 1y ago
Taiwan and South Korea are both richer than the EU on aggregate measured by GDP (PPP) per capita. So are Singapore and Hong Kong, but it’s not fair to compare city-states. Even in nominal terms, Taiwan and SK are right in the middle of the EU member states between Slovenia and Czechia.
JDEW 1y ago
> The laissez-faire approach gave people happy, low-stress, and materially rich lives. The usual schtick conveniently ignoring the absolute marauding of resources from non-western countries and the effective slave labor extracted from Asia.
- bpodgursky 1y ago
  You can't wax poetic about the merits about turning your own workforce into "slave labor" (the entire OP point), and then complain about countries buying things produced by the slave labor.
tokioyoyo 1y ago
I genuinely think an average person in Japan has "richer" life than a person in NA. No real data points, just vibes. I lived in NA, EU and Japan. It is so relative that, I haven't been able to take GDP per capita statistics seriously. The most awful thing for an average, is the work ethics. But that has been rapidly changing in the last 5 years, I think.
nl 1y ago
Japan, Taiwan and SK aren’t noticeably poorer than EU or the US: https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/ https://www.worldometers.info/gdp/gdp-per-capita/
DrNosferatu 1y ago
You have no idea what you’re talking about: The social safety net and access to basic resources like housing and education in Asian democracies, makes the average citizen there much, much, better well off than the average citizen in the geographical “West”. PS: China is completely different - makes no sense throwing it in the comparison.

barry-cotter 1y ago

> all the Asian miracles-- Japan, Taiwan, China, South Korea, Singapore-- involved heavy and widespread state intervention. Hong Kong didn’t. Counter example disproves rule. It’s really not surprising that people followed a successful model, given that people are fashion followers. See how there was so little variation in COVID response across countries.

barry-cotter 1y ago
Poland also didn’t and it’ll surpass Japan in GDP per capita this year.
jordanb 1y ago
Hong Kong operated as a highly independent special economic zone for doing business in China (at it was very close to the Shenzhen SEZ). Its success was due to the way China partially opened up, and the role it played as a crossroads into China.
- barry-cotter 1y ago
  In 1980 when the Shenzhen Special Economic Zone was founded Hong Kong had a GDP per capita of $5,700 as compared to $8,400 for the UK. Hong Kong was a first world country before China opened up for trade. Shenzhen was a fishing village of approximately 30,000 people. Hong Kong was a city state of 5 million. China didn’t become Hong Kong’s main source of imports until 1982.
nl 1y ago
HK wasn’t an “Asian Miracle”. It was a trading hub with the benefit of being a British protectorate. That’s very different to the other named countries which built industrial bases.
DrNosferatu 1y ago
Hong Kong could only be Hong Kong because others could not: its place as a gateway to China was the driver for economic growth, not the “correctness of neoliberal economic ideas”.

klooney 1y ago

All industry everywhere is government subsidized. Germany has always had auto tariffs, and all of German industry heavily benefited from the long term, very cheap piped natural gas deals with Russia. America's remaining industries are subsidized or protected with significant non trade barriers- medicine, rockets, agriculture, light truck manufacturering, financial services. Software services are the one industry that mostly seems to stand on its own two feet, but there was a ton of nurturing of that in the past, as well as onerous export controls on cryptography.