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As an Albertan I really have to wonder who is behind this PR push. Immediately after the election there were people coming to my door, asking about my attitude

As an Albertan I really have to wonder who is behind this PR push. Immediately after the election there were people coming to my door, asking about my attitude towards separatism. There's been flyers and news articles, and now there's an article in the NY Times? Considering the relative unpopularity of the movement, whoever is bankrolling this has a big reach and deep pockets.

mycatisblack 1y ago
My first thought when reading the title was “divide & conquer”
api 1y ago
The West, and especially the US orbit, is obviously under heavy propaganda attack, but the reason it's working is that it's exploiting a deep reservoir of resentment that was already there.
- palmotea 1y ago
  > The West, and especially the US orbit, is obviously under heavy propaganda attack, but the reason it's working is that it's exploiting a deep reservoir of resentment that was already there. And I bet liberals will focus on the former in an attempt to ignore the latter, just like they did with Trump.
  - api 1y ago
    I can’t stand Trump and didn’t vote for him but I understand why some people did, and people like him will keep getting elected until the rest of the political world removes its head from its ass and realizes that no, they cannot just eat cake. Any politician or movement able to channel the rage that’s out there is going to win. When it comes to foreign influence we need to be asking why people are so angry that they can be swayed by some lame low effort memes and honestly kind of dumb propaganda. Russian, Chinese, and other propaganda is not even very good, but it doesn’t have to be. It just has to channel that rage. As for what’s wrong, there’s a list but I think the top item on that list is something almost disappointingly boring. I am a huge believer in the housing theory of everything: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-everything/ https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-every...
jmward01 1y ago
Information warfare is still warfare. Now that we are in the age of information, and disinformation, maybe it is time that countries, and populations, start taking information warfare more seriously. If there really is an entity bankrolling this in an effort to create something that doesn't exist, then what is the appropriate response?
- jmward01 1y ago
  Since this comment caused negative reactions, does anyone have a comment about why this is such a bad observation?
AlexandrB 1y ago
Is it unpopular? I grew up in Alberta and know many people who would be happy to separate, going back to my step dad way back in the 90s. Plenty of Albertans also still hold a grudge for the National Energy Program[1] that bankrupted them in the 80s. At the very least, many Albertan's perceive Queubec separatism as a negotiating tactic that allowed Quebec to secure preferential treatment from Ottawa and would be willing to try the same approach. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program
- SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
  Yes, it's unpopular. There've been no polls that indicate it would have any chance of passing if it came down to a vote. A lot of Albertans love to grumble.
  - BJones12 1y ago
    That's like saying Bernie was unpopular because he couldn't win the primary. He was very popular.
    - jszymborski 1y ago
      No, that's like saying Bernie was unpopular because polls of his popularity said he was unpopular.
    - nonchalantsui 1y ago
      That's not at all similar. We know exactly how many voted for Bernie. The only actual test of separatism in albert has been support for the pension plan and that has been so abysmal they've put the entire push on hold.
  - tenpies 1y ago
    Polls were also showing the Liberals would be wiped out - possibly not even the opposition party - and Conservatives would form a super majority. Which is why it's important to remember that polls are a moment in time and the circumstances of that moment. One divisive comment from Carney or his cabinet. One Trump truth. One more set of tariffs. That's all it takes for a 20% swing in polling that already shows that shows that 36% of Albertans are for leaving[1]. Also worth adding that everyone is sleeping on Saskatchewan which is crucially important to Canada, even more ignored by the Liberals than Alberta, and just as likely to leave. Saskatchewan is also suffering China's tariffs on Canada, which Carney has not ever responded to and ignores almost as much as he ignores Saskatchewan itself[2]. [1] https://angusreid.org/referendum-alberta-saskatchewan-smith-moe/ https://angusreid.org/referendum-alberta-saskatchewan-smith-... [2] https://www.rbc.com/en/thought-leadership/the-trade-hub/food-fight-chinas-tariffs-adds-to-exporters-woes https://www.rbc.com/en/thought-leadership/the-trade-hub/food...
jack_h 1y ago
The polls that I've seen showed something like 30% wanted independence before the election and now it's in the high 30% to mid 40%[1]. The polls could of course be wrong, but if they're any indication it seems as though it isn't that unpopular of a position, but it is highly contentious. I'm sure there's a lot of people behind the PR push for independence and similarly there will be a lot of people behind a counter PR push against independence. Assuming that another position exists merely because of powerful interests usually leads to a lot of strife as two sides of an issue can never reconcile their differences; after all you can't debate against a position that is perceived as being held by people due to powerful interests tricking them into holding it. The reverse will also naturally happen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_separatism#Opinion_polling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_separatism#Opinion_pol...
- SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
  I'm assuming the position exists because of the active and obvious manpower involved. Like I said, there's now people going door to door and flyers being handed out. Important to note, it's not just about separation, it's explicitly in connection to the "Republican Party of Alberta", a newly rebranded political party that has, to date, been entirely inconsequential (the preceding Buffalo Party got 106 votes in the 2023 Provincial Election). There's an obvious and concerted effort to coordinate the sentiment through a single centralized source. I'm not saying the sentiment didn't exist at all before them, there's always been grumblings, but they are latching on to it and intentionally turning it up to 11.
dismalaf 1y ago
As a born Albertan, it's not unpopular. The current separatists aren't popular politicians per se, but the idea we should push for a new plan with the feds like Quebec and the idea of separation itself is more popular than ever. And yes, the people funding it have deep pockets. It's the oil industry. You know what else though? The oil industry bankrolls nearly everything in Alberta. Oil royalties are the reason we don't have PST. It employs hundreds of thousands. That money then supports construction, services, etc... Anyone who was in Alberta when oil was booming knows exactly what it does for the province. Also, it's Canada's #1 export. It keeps the dollar at least almost respectable. And billions get taken from Alberta to pay for the welfare of Canadians in other provinces. Alberta's GDP per capita is literally 35% higher than Canada's... And that's with them kneecapping us...
- YZF 1y ago
  What's in this for the oil industry? Not sure that oil companies actively working for separatism makes sense. What would be the consequences if it becomes public that they're doing this? What sort of pull do the oil companies have over NY Times and other media that's reverberating this? Money pours in when oil prices are high. That's not exactly under Alberta's control. What happens when there's an energy bear market? What is the push towards alternative energy going to do in the long run? Also Alberta is landlocked which would make exporting oil more difficult if Alberta becomes a country. One of PP's talking point (not wrong IMO) was that not having invested in being able to export to non-US customers was forcing Canada to sell oil for lower prices to the US. EDIT: another random thought is that a lot of labor in Alberta came from out of the province. How is separating going to impact that?
  - BJones12 1y ago
    > What's in this for the oil industry? The ability to sell more oil at a higher price, and to lose less of the revenue as tax.
  - rfrey 1y ago
    Low royalties compared to other jurisdictions, with the possibility of them going lower with an "independent" government comprised of their surrogates. Complete socialization of externalities: for example oil companies are flagrantly ignoring their legal obligations to clean up abandoned sites, and the current government is moving to assume the liability for them. Having that and similar cost offloading happen without the pesky federal courts interfering is worth some investment.
Tiktaalik 1y ago
The dominant media in the west, the Postmedia Network, is owned by foreign and conservative interests so there's certainly potential for outside influence. If one took Trump at his word that he'd like to annex Canada this is absolutely a strategy to take. Help along a flimsy and non-viable break away movement, then justify the need to rescue and liberate the repressed minority break away group as casus belli to invade an annex the entire country. This was the Putin playbook with Ukraine.
- vdupras 1y ago
  And, also famously, Hitler's playbook with Czechia.
earlyriser 1y ago
I think this is part of the Balkanization of the West ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics ) and I'm really surprised this is not stronger in Quebec, but I guess it's more easy to orchestrate a propaganda campaign in English.
- libraryatnight 1y ago
  Genuine question from someone ignorant about that ignorance: I'm aware of some desire for Quebec independence, I'd never heard of similar for Alberta. Is it extra propaganda value to stoke the independence movement somewhere it's less prevalent in hopes it riles up the area where it already is more pronounced? Assuming it is more pronounced - as I am not well informed on Canadian politics.
  - jszymborski 1y ago
    DISCLAIMER: This is from the perspective of a Quebecker, not an Albertan. Alberta separatism is something that has been floated at various points in the zeitgeist, but for many, many reasons[0], I have mostly heard it spoken about unseriously by all but few on the fringe. The Quebec sovereignty movement came on the wings of the Quiet Revolution[1] which had critical mass and large support from the francophone population which made up the vast majority of the province. [0] It's unpopularity among alberans and impracticality as a landlocked province, being chief among them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Revolution
  - lareter77 1y ago
    I am American but I know many conservative Canadians that this was basically the last straw. I am not even sure conservative is the right word. Just not liberal. They work a trade, like bars, beer, hockey and hanging out. They really don't care about politics at a deep level. I had been sick of hearing them complain about Trudeau for years. They thought it was obvious things were going to swing the other way and instead the country voted to stay on the same path that Trudeau literally resigned from. Canada is basically a one party state at this point. It would be like if the only US media was the NY Times, MSNBC and CNN. The media jumped on Trump's comments about the 51st state and swung the election with ease. It is not just Alberta, the people I know are in Ontario but there is nothing they can do. They would for sure move to Alberta if this happened. It will all be framed like this is some crazy fringe idea though even though 19 of 20 Canadians I know would agree. The absurd thing to me with Alberta separatism is that there is no way the US would allow this. They would be a defenseless resource rich territory for Chinese infiltration. Canada is in huge trouble. They are basically single party, money laundering haven at this point with a Soviet style media brainwashing regime. Ultimately, In the long run I think Canada ends up a casualty caught in the cross fire between the US and China.
stego-tech 1y ago
Those who promote separatism often have the most to gain from instability. A divided populace is far easier to exploit than a unified one, and the same goes for a fractured government. The UK, the US, Canada, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see more of these overtures from western countries in the decade ahead. People whose sole skill is exploitation of others always seem to believe they can run the world better than others; it’s why they bankroll these movements.
- vdupras 1y ago
  How can we tell if a populace is unified or not? If Canada and the US merged, would it be more "unified"? Would the world population be more "unified" under a world government? If not, what makes the existing governments more legitimate than those fake "unification dreams"?
bjourne 1y ago
That weird neighbour of yours who like to meddle in others affairs? They've done it before...
- morkalork 1y ago
  They even had the whole Monroe doctrine didn't they?
dustbunny 1y ago
Agreed. Immediately after the election this was talked about heavily, but all the rural western Canadians I know are super pro-Canada and not in favor of separatism. It feels like it's even less popular now because of how nationalistic the boomer generation became during this election cycle. As someone with deep connection to the rural roots of this place, this seperatism stuff feels fake.

mycatisblack 1y ago

My first thought when reading the title was “divide & conquer”

api 1y ago

The West, and especially the US orbit, is obviously under heavy propaganda attack, but the reason it's working is that it's exploiting a deep reservoir of resentment that was already there.

palmotea 1y ago
> The West, and especially the US orbit, is obviously under heavy propaganda attack, but the reason it's working is that it's exploiting a deep reservoir of resentment that was already there. And I bet liberals will focus on the former in an attempt to ignore the latter, just like they did with Trump.
- api 1y ago
  I can’t stand Trump and didn’t vote for him but I understand why some people did, and people like him will keep getting elected until the rest of the political world removes its head from its ass and realizes that no, they cannot just eat cake. Any politician or movement able to channel the rage that’s out there is going to win. When it comes to foreign influence we need to be asking why people are so angry that they can be swayed by some lame low effort memes and honestly kind of dumb propaganda. Russian, Chinese, and other propaganda is not even very good, but it doesn’t have to be. It just has to channel that rage. As for what’s wrong, there’s a list but I think the top item on that list is something almost disappointingly boring. I am a huge believer in the housing theory of everything: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-everything/ https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-every...

jmward01 1y ago

Information warfare is still warfare. Now that we are in the age of information, and disinformation, maybe it is time that countries, and populations, start taking information warfare more seriously. If there really is an entity bankrolling this in an effort to create something that doesn't exist, then what is the appropriate response?

jmward01 1y ago
Since this comment caused negative reactions, does anyone have a comment about why this is such a bad observation?

AlexandrB 1y ago

Is it unpopular? I grew up in Alberta and know many people who would be happy to separate, going back to my step dad way back in the 90s. Plenty of Albertans also still hold a grudge for the National Energy Program[1] that bankrupted them in the 80s. At the very least, many Albertan's perceive Queubec separatism as a negotiating tactic that allowed Quebec to secure preferential treatment from Ottawa and would be willing to try the same approach. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program

SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
Yes, it's unpopular. There've been no polls that indicate it would have any chance of passing if it came down to a vote. A lot of Albertans love to grumble.
- BJones12 1y ago
  That's like saying Bernie was unpopular because he couldn't win the primary. He was very popular.
  - jszymborski 1y ago
    No, that's like saying Bernie was unpopular because polls of his popularity said he was unpopular.
  - nonchalantsui 1y ago
    That's not at all similar. We know exactly how many voted for Bernie. The only actual test of separatism in albert has been support for the pension plan and that has been so abysmal they've put the entire push on hold.
- tenpies 1y ago
  Polls were also showing the Liberals would be wiped out - possibly not even the opposition party - and Conservatives would form a super majority. Which is why it's important to remember that polls are a moment in time and the circumstances of that moment. One divisive comment from Carney or his cabinet. One Trump truth. One more set of tariffs. That's all it takes for a 20% swing in polling that already shows that shows that 36% of Albertans are for leaving[1]. Also worth adding that everyone is sleeping on Saskatchewan which is crucially important to Canada, even more ignored by the Liberals than Alberta, and just as likely to leave. Saskatchewan is also suffering China's tariffs on Canada, which Carney has not ever responded to and ignores almost as much as he ignores Saskatchewan itself[2]. [1] https://angusreid.org/referendum-alberta-saskatchewan-smith-moe/ https://angusreid.org/referendum-alberta-saskatchewan-smith-... [2] https://www.rbc.com/en/thought-leadership/the-trade-hub/food-fight-chinas-tariffs-adds-to-exporters-woes https://www.rbc.com/en/thought-leadership/the-trade-hub/food...

jack_h 1y ago

The polls that I've seen showed something like 30% wanted independence before the election and now it's in the high 30% to mid 40%[1]. The polls could of course be wrong, but if they're any indication it seems as though it isn't that unpopular of a position, but it is highly contentious. I'm sure there's a lot of people behind the PR push for independence and similarly there will be a lot of people behind a counter PR push against independence. Assuming that another position exists merely because of powerful interests usually leads to a lot of strife as two sides of an issue can never reconcile their differences; after all you can't debate against a position that is perceived as being held by people due to powerful interests tricking them into holding it. The reverse will also naturally happen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_separatism#Opinion_polling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_separatism#Opinion_pol...

SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
I'm assuming the position exists because of the active and obvious manpower involved. Like I said, there's now people going door to door and flyers being handed out. Important to note, it's not just about separation, it's explicitly in connection to the "Republican Party of Alberta", a newly rebranded political party that has, to date, been entirely inconsequential (the preceding Buffalo Party got 106 votes in the 2023 Provincial Election). There's an obvious and concerted effort to coordinate the sentiment through a single centralized source. I'm not saying the sentiment didn't exist at all before them, there's always been grumblings, but they are latching on to it and intentionally turning it up to 11.

dismalaf 1y ago

As a born Albertan, it's not unpopular. The current separatists aren't popular politicians per se, but the idea we should push for a new plan with the feds like Quebec and the idea of separation itself is more popular than ever. And yes, the people funding it have deep pockets. It's the oil industry. You know what else though? The oil industry bankrolls nearly everything in Alberta. Oil royalties are the reason we don't have PST. It employs hundreds of thousands. That money then supports construction, services, etc... Anyone who was in Alberta when oil was booming knows exactly what it does for the province. Also, it's Canada's #1 export. It keeps the dollar at least almost respectable. And billions get taken from Alberta to pay for the welfare of Canadians in other provinces. Alberta's GDP per capita is literally 35% higher than Canada's... And that's with them kneecapping us...

YZF 1y ago
What's in this for the oil industry? Not sure that oil companies actively working for separatism makes sense. What would be the consequences if it becomes public that they're doing this? What sort of pull do the oil companies have over NY Times and other media that's reverberating this? Money pours in when oil prices are high. That's not exactly under Alberta's control. What happens when there's an energy bear market? What is the push towards alternative energy going to do in the long run? Also Alberta is landlocked which would make exporting oil more difficult if Alberta becomes a country. One of PP's talking point (not wrong IMO) was that not having invested in being able to export to non-US customers was forcing Canada to sell oil for lower prices to the US. EDIT: another random thought is that a lot of labor in Alberta came from out of the province. How is separating going to impact that?
- BJones12 1y ago
  > What's in this for the oil industry? The ability to sell more oil at a higher price, and to lose less of the revenue as tax.
- rfrey 1y ago
  Low royalties compared to other jurisdictions, with the possibility of them going lower with an "independent" government comprised of their surrogates. Complete socialization of externalities: for example oil companies are flagrantly ignoring their legal obligations to clean up abandoned sites, and the current government is moving to assume the liability for them. Having that and similar cost offloading happen without the pesky federal courts interfering is worth some investment.

Tiktaalik 1y ago

The dominant media in the west, the Postmedia Network, is owned by foreign and conservative interests so there's certainly potential for outside influence. If one took Trump at his word that he'd like to annex Canada this is absolutely a strategy to take. Help along a flimsy and non-viable break away movement, then justify the need to rescue and liberate the repressed minority break away group as casus belli to invade an annex the entire country. This was the Putin playbook with Ukraine.

vdupras 1y ago
And, also famously, Hitler's playbook with Czechia.

earlyriser 1y ago

I think this is part of the Balkanization of the West ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics ) and I'm really surprised this is not stronger in Quebec, but I guess it's more easy to orchestrate a propaganda campaign in English.

libraryatnight 1y ago
Genuine question from someone ignorant about that ignorance: I'm aware of some desire for Quebec independence, I'd never heard of similar for Alberta. Is it extra propaganda value to stoke the independence movement somewhere it's less prevalent in hopes it riles up the area where it already is more pronounced? Assuming it is more pronounced - as I am not well informed on Canadian politics.
- jszymborski 1y ago
  DISCLAIMER: This is from the perspective of a Quebecker, not an Albertan. Alberta separatism is something that has been floated at various points in the zeitgeist, but for many, many reasons[0], I have mostly heard it spoken about unseriously by all but few on the fringe. The Quebec sovereignty movement came on the wings of the Quiet Revolution[1] which had critical mass and large support from the francophone population which made up the vast majority of the province. [0] It's unpopularity among alberans and impracticality as a landlocked province, being chief among them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiet_Revolution
- lareter77 1y ago
  I am American but I know many conservative Canadians that this was basically the last straw. I am not even sure conservative is the right word. Just not liberal. They work a trade, like bars, beer, hockey and hanging out. They really don't care about politics at a deep level. I had been sick of hearing them complain about Trudeau for years. They thought it was obvious things were going to swing the other way and instead the country voted to stay on the same path that Trudeau literally resigned from. Canada is basically a one party state at this point. It would be like if the only US media was the NY Times, MSNBC and CNN. The media jumped on Trump's comments about the 51st state and swung the election with ease. It is not just Alberta, the people I know are in Ontario but there is nothing they can do. They would for sure move to Alberta if this happened. It will all be framed like this is some crazy fringe idea though even though 19 of 20 Canadians I know would agree. The absurd thing to me with Alberta separatism is that there is no way the US would allow this. They would be a defenseless resource rich territory for Chinese infiltration. Canada is in huge trouble. They are basically single party, money laundering haven at this point with a Soviet style media brainwashing regime. Ultimately, In the long run I think Canada ends up a casualty caught in the cross fire between the US and China.

stego-tech 1y ago

Those who promote separatism often have the most to gain from instability. A divided populace is far easier to exploit than a unified one, and the same goes for a fractured government. The UK, the US, Canada, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see more of these overtures from western countries in the decade ahead. People whose sole skill is exploitation of others always seem to believe they can run the world better than others; it’s why they bankroll these movements.

vdupras 1y ago
How can we tell if a populace is unified or not? If Canada and the US merged, would it be more "unified"? Would the world population be more "unified" under a world government? If not, what makes the existing governments more legitimate than those fake "unification dreams"?

bjourne 1y ago

That weird neighbour of yours who like to meddle in others affairs? They've done it before...

morkalork 1y ago
They even had the whole Monroe doctrine didn't they?

dustbunny 1y ago

Agreed. Immediately after the election this was talked about heavily, but all the rural western Canadians I know are super pro-Canada and not in favor of separatism. It feels like it's even less popular now because of how nationalistic the boomer generation became during this election cycle. As someone with deep connection to the rural roots of this place, this seperatism stuff feels fake.