6 ms·

Has been happening since 2015, and in such scales that "going expat" is synonymous to "moving to Berlin".

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
Care to elaborate in detail? I think the term "expats" and "brain drain" are two distinct groups that even though are often used interchangeably, can have little overlap. All brain drains are expats, but not all expats are valuable brains who's draining is worth anything. For example, it's one thing to import a math/physics Olympiad winner from India/China/Romania prioritizing to move to the hottest place in tech funding and cutting edge R&D, and another to import an unemployed standup comedian seeking to move to the most hipster city for raves and parties where he can tweet form his MacBook how happy he is he left Trump's "fascist" America. In my case, I also see a lot more American expats where I live here in my European college town, but when I talk to them about their jobs/careers, most seem to be net drain on our system (au pairs, dog walkers, under the table English teachers, etc) who moved here for the chill life and free healthcare, rather than some highly ambitious well paid engineers or scientists who are gonna boost our economy to overtake the US. Most valuable brains are met here still seem to come from Balkans, Eastern Europe, India, Iran and Asia in general. Do you see my point? Edit: please see my grandchild comment below for detailing on my thoughts on this
- Symbiote 1y ago
  A friend who heads a well-funded research group here in Denmark says the recent change is not so much in the number of Americans applying, but the quality/prestige. He's now receiving serious enquiries from graduates of Stanford, MIT etc, who previously were unlikely to leave the USA.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    I don't doubt that, but researchers and post-docs always tend to move around he world, especially in niche fields, where you can't usually find an opportunity in your area of expertise right in your back yard in a timely manner(some PhD friends had to move from the EU to Korea because of that), but my main point is whether that will dethrone the US economically and boost the EU in the same way, or if the end result will be negligeable in practice. I suspect as long as the US pays the highest wages in the world by a long shot, and hosts the world's top companies, both civilian and military, it will not run out of brains willing to move there. Because for every American leaving to Copenhagen because of Trump, the US might get 10 new brains in return from China, India, Vietnam, Korea, Turkey, Serbia, etc. for the wages. Plus, Trump is a passing event that will be replaced in 3,5 years with someone else who could turn things around. You'd probably need 10-20 Trumps in a row to cause any lasting damage to the US. And also, no matter how moronic Trump or a US president can be, corporations like Apple, Nvidia, AMD, SpaceX, etc are not, and will always lobby Trump or whoever will be president to maintain policies that will keep the US attractive to brains for them so they can get the best talent in the world. Do you see where I'm coming from when I say I doubt the US will suffer much or at all?
    - aqme28 1y ago
      > I suspect as long as the US pays the highest wages in the world by a long shot, and hosts the world's top companies, both civilian and military, it will not run out of brains willing to move there. If fewer of the world's smartest people are willing or able to move to the US, then competition for labor will shrink and so will wages.
      - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
        >If ... Yes, if. I addressed that in my previous comment. It's unlikely that "if" will happen.
    - birn559 1y ago
      That's true for tech R&D, but researchers are not necessarily driven by money, but by prestige and research opportunities.
    - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
      > You'd probably need 10-20 Trumps in a row to cause any lasting damage to the US. That is way too optimistic. One Trump can do plenty of long lasting damage to the USA. Will the world ever trust us again? We are basically quickly burning away goodwill that took a century to build up, and even if Trump is gone, the Trump voters remain, the USA is will no longer be seen as a reliable international partner anymore.
- seec 1y ago
  I agree a whole lot. I find it particularly revolting when Americans comes to EU for "free" education, free healthcare, etc. Only to end up going back to the US at some for the better quality of life and pay (and I believe, avoiding paying too much taxes on amassed net worth).
- seanmcdirmid 1y ago
  I wonder about this also. Spain has great retirement packages for Americans with a certain amount of income, they can even buy into social healthcare, but is that really in Spain’s interest? It seems like something to be exploited until it’s cut off. Germany’s education makes a bit more sense, given how Unitarian it is, it might be cost effective to charge foreign students low tuition, but even then I’m not really sure. As a former software engineering expat/migrant worker in China, it all makes more sense for us Americans to work there, we aren’t really gaming the system at that point.
aqme28 1y ago
You make me feel like a cliche... Left for Berlin in 2021 and do not regret it one bit. Edit: I had a choice between a masters program in the US for about $30,000/year or in Berlin for €700/year. It was obvious which choice was not only cheaper, but also more interesting in terms of life experience.
- leereeves 1y ago
  €700/year without EU citizenship?
  - noiwillnot 1y ago
    Studying in the EU is cheap. I mean Germans pay almost 45-50% personal income taxes, money has to go somewhere!
    - dagw 1y ago
      Studying in the EU is cheap Not if you're from outside the EU/EEA and don't qualify for scholarships or other waivers. I just checked TU Munich as an example and they charge 6000 euros/semester for non EU/EEA CS Masters students.
- seec 1y ago
  You will be paying for the education in the form of very high taxes for all your life, regardless of if you studied or if the quality was good or even useful (something extremely debatable, outside of some key selective universities). I am always amazed at the quickness of some Americans with socialist sensibilities view EUs governments/systems as some panacea when they are doing pretty bad in many relevant metrics. The EUs benefit is being able to rely on centuries old infrastructure/history/culture but the modern governance is completely fucked up and largely the complete inverse of what allowed it to get there. At least in the US if you think your chances are better without a degree or that they are overpriced you can try your luck without having to pay for it your whole life. You decide. In the EU, you have no choice and chances are the money will be used inefficiently for useless studies. And this is exactly what is happening.
lifestyleguru 1y ago
> "moving to Berlin" to do... what? WFH on some "sharing platform" with 16Mbps DSL in aparthotel and keep applying for long term rental for 12 months? Tremble from anxiousness on seeing a letter in their postbox?
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  People don't move to Berlin to WFH, since apartments are almst impossible to get for outsiders. They move to Berlin to party and cosplay hip start-up founder.
  - lifestyleguru 1y ago
    I couldn't rent anything when attempting to switch after almost ten years of full time employment there. I say good luck, "true Berliners"!
eesmith 1y ago
I hadn't heard the phrase "going expat" before, so I was curious if the Lost Generation ex-pat American writers in Paris in the 1920s used it. Google n-grams hasn't seen the term. DDG hasn't either. Google has all of 122 matches. I didn't spot Germany in a quick scan. The Netherlands was pretty high on the list. I therefore don't think that "going expat" is all that common. I'm not privy to how it's used in isolated corporate exchanges like on Meta and X so perhaps that's why I haven't seen that phrase used?
- apothegm 1y ago
  In 1920 they might have said “expatriate” or “emigrant” instead. “Expat” is a recent shortening. I haven’t seen it used with “going” much, but the meaning is clear.
  - eesmith 1y ago
    Oh, I understand the history and nomenclature. I'm referring specifically to how blueflow quoted "going expat" as if that were a common phrase, albeit which I didn't recognize. It doesn't seem to be one people actually use, so IMO shouldn't be quoted.

Care to elaborate in detail? I think the term "expats" and "brain drain" are two distinct groups that even though are often used interchangeably, can have little overlap. All brain drains are expats, but not all expats are valuable brains who's draining is worth anything. For example, it's one thing to import a math/physics Olympiad winner from India/China/Romania prioritizing to move to the hottest place in tech funding and cutting edge R&D, and another to import an unemployed standup comedian seeking to move to the most hipster city for raves and parties where he can tweet form his MacBook how happy he is he left Trump's "fascist" America. In my case, I also see a lot more American expats where I live here in my European college town, but when I talk to them about their jobs/careers, most seem to be net drain on our system (au pairs, dog walkers, under the table English teachers, etc) who moved here for the chill life and free healthcare, rather than some highly ambitious well paid engineers or scientists who are gonna boost our economy to overtake the US. Most valuable brains are met here still seem to come from Balkans, Eastern Europe, India, Iran and Asia in general. Do you see my point? Edit: please see my grandchild comment below for detailing on my thoughts on this

Symbiote 1y ago
A friend who heads a well-funded research group here in Denmark says the recent change is not so much in the number of Americans applying, but the quality/prestige. He's now receiving serious enquiries from graduates of Stanford, MIT etc, who previously were unlikely to leave the USA.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  I don't doubt that, but researchers and post-docs always tend to move around he world, especially in niche fields, where you can't usually find an opportunity in your area of expertise right in your back yard in a timely manner(some PhD friends had to move from the EU to Korea because of that), but my main point is whether that will dethrone the US economically and boost the EU in the same way, or if the end result will be negligeable in practice. I suspect as long as the US pays the highest wages in the world by a long shot, and hosts the world's top companies, both civilian and military, it will not run out of brains willing to move there. Because for every American leaving to Copenhagen because of Trump, the US might get 10 new brains in return from China, India, Vietnam, Korea, Turkey, Serbia, etc. for the wages. Plus, Trump is a passing event that will be replaced in 3,5 years with someone else who could turn things around. You'd probably need 10-20 Trumps in a row to cause any lasting damage to the US. And also, no matter how moronic Trump or a US president can be, corporations like Apple, Nvidia, AMD, SpaceX, etc are not, and will always lobby Trump or whoever will be president to maintain policies that will keep the US attractive to brains for them so they can get the best talent in the world. Do you see where I'm coming from when I say I doubt the US will suffer much or at all?
  - aqme28 1y ago
    > I suspect as long as the US pays the highest wages in the world by a long shot, and hosts the world's top companies, both civilian and military, it will not run out of brains willing to move there. If fewer of the world's smartest people are willing or able to move to the US, then competition for labor will shrink and so will wages.
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      >If ... Yes, if. I addressed that in my previous comment. It's unlikely that "if" will happen.
  - birn559 1y ago
    That's true for tech R&D, but researchers are not necessarily driven by money, but by prestige and research opportunities.
  - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
    > You'd probably need 10-20 Trumps in a row to cause any lasting damage to the US. That is way too optimistic. One Trump can do plenty of long lasting damage to the USA. Will the world ever trust us again? We are basically quickly burning away goodwill that took a century to build up, and even if Trump is gone, the Trump voters remain, the USA is will no longer be seen as a reliable international partner anymore.
seec 1y ago
I agree a whole lot. I find it particularly revolting when Americans comes to EU for "free" education, free healthcare, etc. Only to end up going back to the US at some for the better quality of life and pay (and I believe, avoiding paying too much taxes on amassed net worth).
seanmcdirmid 1y ago
I wonder about this also. Spain has great retirement packages for Americans with a certain amount of income, they can even buy into social healthcare, but is that really in Spain’s interest? It seems like something to be exploited until it’s cut off. Germany’s education makes a bit more sense, given how Unitarian it is, it might be cost effective to charge foreign students low tuition, but even then I’m not really sure. As a former software engineering expat/migrant worker in China, it all makes more sense for us Americans to work there, we aren’t really gaming the system at that point.

aqme28 1y ago

You make me feel like a cliche... Left for Berlin in 2021 and do not regret it one bit. Edit: I had a choice between a masters program in the US for about $30,000/year or in Berlin for €700/year. It was obvious which choice was not only cheaper, but also more interesting in terms of life experience.

leereeves 1y ago
€700/year without EU citizenship?
- noiwillnot 1y ago
  Studying in the EU is cheap. I mean Germans pay almost 45-50% personal income taxes, money has to go somewhere!
  - dagw 1y ago
    Studying in the EU is cheap Not if you're from outside the EU/EEA and don't qualify for scholarships or other waivers. I just checked TU Munich as an example and they charge 6000 euros/semester for non EU/EEA CS Masters students.
seec 1y ago
You will be paying for the education in the form of very high taxes for all your life, regardless of if you studied or if the quality was good or even useful (something extremely debatable, outside of some key selective universities). I am always amazed at the quickness of some Americans with socialist sensibilities view EUs governments/systems as some panacea when they are doing pretty bad in many relevant metrics. The EUs benefit is being able to rely on centuries old infrastructure/history/culture but the modern governance is completely fucked up and largely the complete inverse of what allowed it to get there. At least in the US if you think your chances are better without a degree or that they are overpriced you can try your luck without having to pay for it your whole life. You decide. In the EU, you have no choice and chances are the money will be used inefficiently for useless studies. And this is exactly what is happening.

lifestyleguru 1y ago

> "moving to Berlin" to do... what? WFH on some "sharing platform" with 16Mbps DSL in aparthotel and keep applying for long term rental for 12 months? Tremble from anxiousness on seeing a letter in their postbox?

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
People don't move to Berlin to WFH, since apartments are almst impossible to get for outsiders. They move to Berlin to party and cosplay hip start-up founder.
- lifestyleguru 1y ago
  I couldn't rent anything when attempting to switch after almost ten years of full time employment there. I say good luck, "true Berliners"!

eesmith 1y ago

I hadn't heard the phrase "going expat" before, so I was curious if the Lost Generation ex-pat American writers in Paris in the 1920s used it. Google n-grams hasn't seen the term. DDG hasn't either. Google has all of 122 matches. I didn't spot Germany in a quick scan. The Netherlands was pretty high on the list. I therefore don't think that "going expat" is all that common. I'm not privy to how it's used in isolated corporate exchanges like on Meta and X so perhaps that's why I haven't seen that phrase used?

apothegm 1y ago
In 1920 they might have said “expatriate” or “emigrant” instead. “Expat” is a recent shortening. I haven’t seen it used with “going” much, but the meaning is clear.
- eesmith 1y ago
  Oh, I understand the history and nomenclature. I'm referring specifically to how blueflow quoted "going expat" as if that were a common phrase, albeit which I didn't recognize. It doesn't seem to be one people actually use, so IMO shouldn't be quoted.