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I have almost never had a good experience with Flatpaks as a user, outside of ease of installation. They almost never integrate with the system properly. Wrong

I have almost never had a good experience with Flatpaks as a user, outside of ease of installation. They almost never integrate with the system properly. Wrong theme, wrong cursors, wrong file picker, permission issues, drag-and-drop issues. You often need extra tools that broaden the permissions of apps post-install because some feature won't work (global push-to-talk in Discord is always fun, especially with Wayland). I couldn't care less about sandboxing if the UX sucks as a result. If binary portability wasn't such a complete joke on Linux we wouldn't need Flatpak, but here we are.

Gigachad 1y ago
Flatpak does have answers for this stuff but it's more the programs inside them aren't utilizing the right APIs, they are meant to use the portals api for filepickers which would use the system filepicker and securely portal stuff through the sandboxing. But many apps just don't. Theme is also an odd one. GUI design in general has shifted away from an OS theme and more towards an app/product theme which stays consistent between the product on different platforms. Discord for example looks largely the same on Linux, Windows, iOS, and web.
- MindSpunk 1y ago
  Even for apps that don't use one of the native toolkits like GTK or Qt, where this has been a solved problem for decades, they should at least respond to a dark/light mode flag if they can. Flatpaks mostly don't. They don't even have the same cursor as the system a lot of the time. It's especially cool when running display scaling when some apps shrink the cursor to a minuscule size too because of poor system integration.
  - ChocolateGod 1y ago
    I don't think there was ever a standardised way to publish whether the system was in light or dark mode until the last few years.
- vrighter 1y ago
  If the apps inside need to be specifically coded for it, then why is it "marketed" as a way to sandbox currently existing apps?
  - Gigachad 1y ago
    I’m not sure flatpak is marketed at all. Users might describe it like that. From my understanding if you use GTK or QT it just works but many programs have their own custom file pickers which don’t work when filesystem access has been restricted.
- _flux 1y ago
  I believe it doesn't work for me to open a directory of HTML files in Firefox: it just opens one file, and that's it, so style sheets and links are missed. I've worked around by running a local web server for that content, but I'd rather if it just worked. The problem is also in some apps that open web browser for their documentation by invoking them directly.
Haemm0r 1y ago
You don't need Flatpak at all to have these kind of usability issues, it is deeper than that: For example, if you mount a samba share in the Linux Mint Cinnamon file explorer it is just good to use it from there. Accessing files from the mounted share from "external" apps is a pita (shares are mounted to some obscure path(permission issues), the apps filepickers never have the information that a share was mounted, etc.). If you want usesful access to a samba share you have to mount it via terminal; This way at least the path to the share is short.
- skydhash 1y ago
  I think that because a lot of gtk apps use gvfs[0]. And most kde apps use kio[1]. But if you want files access through the standard syscall. You have to use the standard mount program or fuse. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GVfs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GVfs 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIO
archargelod 1y ago
I find Appimage to be better alternative to Flatpak: no install, persistent through linux installations, no issues with themes, icons, Xorg config; in practice - take fraction of flatpak storage size, optional sandboxing with external tools like firejail, easier to run from terminal / dmenu / rofi, very easy to tinker with and fix. There's just one problem: they don't integrate with desktop without an additional application. We need a feature where dropping an AppImage into "~/.local/share/applications" would automatically detect it as a ".desktop" file and make it appear in the DE menus.
- krisgenre 1y ago
  For desktop integration you can use Gear Lever https://github.com/mijorus/gearlever https://github.com/mijorus/gearlever. It can also update AppImages with some configuration changes.
- padraic7a 1y ago
  on Ubuntu you can integrate Appimages with AppImageLauncher. https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2022/10/appimagelauncher-install-on-ubuntu https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2022/10/appimagelauncher-install...
  - medstrom 1y ago
    Yes! It's very helpful, if you can get it on your distro. GitHub link: https://github.com/TheAssassin/AppImageLauncher https://github.com/TheAssassin/AppImageLauncher
- kalaksi 1y ago
  I disagree. Flatpak pros: - installing: easy to locate, install and has centralized management for updates. - flatpaks are also persistent. User-installs are in the home dir. - sandboxing built-in. Can't comment on other stuff. Haven't had issues.
  - dagw 1y ago
    sandboxing built-in This is both a pro and a con. For example, one big downside of this approach is that it can make installing third party plugins and scripts much harder than it should be.
s_ting765 1y ago
To make the best out of flatpak, it's best to think of it as a new sandboxed distribution that lives on your host system. E.g You could check if a specific theme is installable as a flatpak application. Flatpaks are not perfect and I have my gripes with flatpak but the only alternative is Ubuntu's snaps.
- qwertox 1y ago
  Ubuntu's Snaps depend heavily on AppArmor which is not present in many of the other top-tier distros which use SELinux, so it's not an alternative.
  - s_ting765 1y ago
    Semantics. Ubuntu is an alternative to those other "top-tier" distros.
alkonaut 1y ago
Why do these things not work properly when apps are flatpaks? e.g. if an app tries to query the environment and ask "what's the theme", how would it get a different answer when run from a flatpak?
- thyristan 1y ago
  Different answers for different problems, but basically two reasons. First, library/software/data versions inside the flatpak can and will be different from the ones outside. So a flatpak might as "what is the current Qt5 theme", and get the answer "don't know about Qt5, but the Qt6 theme is cute-cats-qt6" which it cannot interpret. Things like themes might not even be available inside the flatpak, so even if the answer were parseable, cute-cats-qt6 might just not be available on the inside. Second, flatpaks are sandboxed, so things will be filtered. This means that a query might not get through, an answer might not get through, both might be altered. Or maybe an answer might be useless because "you can get the theme at /usr/share/themes/cute-cats-qt6" points to a path that the flatpak is not allowed to access.
  - alkonaut 1y ago
    Maybe a contrived example but shouldn't Qt6 be answering with a compatible answer if a Qt5 app asks it what the theme is? And shouldn't the app be asking what the "theme" is, rather than what the Qt5-theme is? It seems like a fundamental issue with compat between apps built for different versions of Qt more than a problem with flatpak? And is the sandboxing perhaps going a step too far if apps can't access the things they need from the environment?
    - curt15 1y ago
      If Linux libraries had that much respect for backward compatibility, there would never had been any demand for Flatpak. Flatpak (and snap) is merely a workaround for the lack of a common "Linux platform" with comprehensive, versioned APIs analogous to the Windows API or Android API. After all, Flatpak essentially provides a way to run a distribution (provided by Flatpak runtimes) inside the host distribution.
preisschild 1y ago
Many of the problems you mentioned are already resolved though. For example "global push-to-talk in Discord is always fun, especially with Wayland" was solved by using the [Global Shortcuts Portal](https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/docs/doc-org.freedesktop.portal.GlobalShortcuts.html https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/docs/doc-org.fr...). Most desktop environments / window managers support that portal and stuff like Electron does too, so for example with Slack (installed over Flatpak) in can now toggle mute even If i dont focus Slack.
INTPenis 1y ago
That's not UX though, it's more theming. If themes affect your UX then there is no pleasing you. True enough I'm happy with flatpak but I never stray from the default GTK themes. I was unhappy with flatpak until I found Flatseal, now I include it on all my workstation setups. But I can't help you with the theming unfortunately, I think that's a sore point for a lot of users that like customizing their Linux DE.
tmountain 1y ago
STEAM on Fedora requires a bunch of incantations on the CLI to get controller support working after Flatpak installation. This pretty much solidifies its flaws as a format. "Table stakes" apps should just work.

Gigachad 1y ago

Flatpak does have answers for this stuff but it's more the programs inside them aren't utilizing the right APIs, they are meant to use the portals api for filepickers which would use the system filepicker and securely portal stuff through the sandboxing. But many apps just don't. Theme is also an odd one. GUI design in general has shifted away from an OS theme and more towards an app/product theme which stays consistent between the product on different platforms. Discord for example looks largely the same on Linux, Windows, iOS, and web.

MindSpunk 1y ago
Even for apps that don't use one of the native toolkits like GTK or Qt, where this has been a solved problem for decades, they should at least respond to a dark/light mode flag if they can. Flatpaks mostly don't. They don't even have the same cursor as the system a lot of the time. It's especially cool when running display scaling when some apps shrink the cursor to a minuscule size too because of poor system integration.
- ChocolateGod 1y ago
  I don't think there was ever a standardised way to publish whether the system was in light or dark mode until the last few years.
vrighter 1y ago
If the apps inside need to be specifically coded for it, then why is it "marketed" as a way to sandbox currently existing apps?
- Gigachad 1y ago
  I’m not sure flatpak is marketed at all. Users might describe it like that. From my understanding if you use GTK or QT it just works but many programs have their own custom file pickers which don’t work when filesystem access has been restricted.
_flux 1y ago
I believe it doesn't work for me to open a directory of HTML files in Firefox: it just opens one file, and that's it, so style sheets and links are missed. I've worked around by running a local web server for that content, but I'd rather if it just worked. The problem is also in some apps that open web browser for their documentation by invoking them directly.

Haemm0r 1y ago

You don't need Flatpak at all to have these kind of usability issues, it is deeper than that: For example, if you mount a samba share in the Linux Mint Cinnamon file explorer it is just good to use it from there. Accessing files from the mounted share from "external" apps is a pita (shares are mounted to some obscure path(permission issues), the apps filepickers never have the information that a share was mounted, etc.). If you want usesful access to a samba share you have to mount it via terminal; This way at least the path to the share is short.

skydhash 1y ago
I think that because a lot of gtk apps use gvfs[0]. And most kde apps use kio[1]. But if you want files access through the standard syscall. You have to use the standard mount program or fuse. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GVfs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GVfs 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KIO

archargelod 1y ago

I find Appimage to be better alternative to Flatpak: no install, persistent through linux installations, no issues with themes, icons, Xorg config; in practice - take fraction of flatpak storage size, optional sandboxing with external tools like firejail, easier to run from terminal / dmenu / rofi, very easy to tinker with and fix. There's just one problem: they don't integrate with desktop without an additional application. We need a feature where dropping an AppImage into "~/.local/share/applications" would automatically detect it as a ".desktop" file and make it appear in the DE menus.

krisgenre 1y ago
For desktop integration you can use Gear Lever https://github.com/mijorus/gearlever https://github.com/mijorus/gearlever. It can also update AppImages with some configuration changes.
padraic7a 1y ago
on Ubuntu you can integrate Appimages with AppImageLauncher. https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2022/10/appimagelauncher-install-on-ubuntu https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2022/10/appimagelauncher-install...
- medstrom 1y ago
  Yes! It's very helpful, if you can get it on your distro. GitHub link: https://github.com/TheAssassin/AppImageLauncher https://github.com/TheAssassin/AppImageLauncher
kalaksi 1y ago
I disagree. Flatpak pros: - installing: easy to locate, install and has centralized management for updates. - flatpaks are also persistent. User-installs are in the home dir. - sandboxing built-in. Can't comment on other stuff. Haven't had issues.
- dagw 1y ago
  sandboxing built-in This is both a pro and a con. For example, one big downside of this approach is that it can make installing third party plugins and scripts much harder than it should be.

s_ting765 1y ago

To make the best out of flatpak, it's best to think of it as a new sandboxed distribution that lives on your host system. E.g You could check if a specific theme is installable as a flatpak application. Flatpaks are not perfect and I have my gripes with flatpak but the only alternative is Ubuntu's snaps.

qwertox 1y ago
Ubuntu's Snaps depend heavily on AppArmor which is not present in many of the other top-tier distros which use SELinux, so it's not an alternative.
- s_ting765 1y ago
  Semantics. Ubuntu is an alternative to those other "top-tier" distros.

alkonaut 1y ago

Why do these things not work properly when apps are flatpaks? e.g. if an app tries to query the environment and ask "what's the theme", how would it get a different answer when run from a flatpak?

thyristan 1y ago
Different answers for different problems, but basically two reasons. First, library/software/data versions inside the flatpak can and will be different from the ones outside. So a flatpak might as "what is the current Qt5 theme", and get the answer "don't know about Qt5, but the Qt6 theme is cute-cats-qt6" which it cannot interpret. Things like themes might not even be available inside the flatpak, so even if the answer were parseable, cute-cats-qt6 might just not be available on the inside. Second, flatpaks are sandboxed, so things will be filtered. This means that a query might not get through, an answer might not get through, both might be altered. Or maybe an answer might be useless because "you can get the theme at /usr/share/themes/cute-cats-qt6" points to a path that the flatpak is not allowed to access.
- alkonaut 1y ago
  Maybe a contrived example but shouldn't Qt6 be answering with a compatible answer if a Qt5 app asks it what the theme is? And shouldn't the app be asking what the "theme" is, rather than what the Qt5-theme is? It seems like a fundamental issue with compat between apps built for different versions of Qt more than a problem with flatpak? And is the sandboxing perhaps going a step too far if apps can't access the things they need from the environment?
  - curt15 1y ago
    If Linux libraries had that much respect for backward compatibility, there would never had been any demand for Flatpak. Flatpak (and snap) is merely a workaround for the lack of a common "Linux platform" with comprehensive, versioned APIs analogous to the Windows API or Android API. After all, Flatpak essentially provides a way to run a distribution (provided by Flatpak runtimes) inside the host distribution.

preisschild 1y ago

Many of the problems you mentioned are already resolved though. For example "global push-to-talk in Discord is always fun, especially with Wayland" was solved by using the [Global Shortcuts Portal](https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/docs/doc-org.freedesktop.portal.GlobalShortcuts.html https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/docs/doc-org.fr...). Most desktop environments / window managers support that portal and stuff like Electron does too, so for example with Slack (installed over Flatpak) in can now toggle mute even If i dont focus Slack.

INTPenis 1y ago

That's not UX though, it's more theming. If themes affect your UX then there is no pleasing you. True enough I'm happy with flatpak but I never stray from the default GTK themes. I was unhappy with flatpak until I found Flatseal, now I include it on all my workstation setups. But I can't help you with the theming unfortunately, I think that's a sore point for a lot of users that like customizing their Linux DE.

tmountain 1y ago

STEAM on Fedora requires a bunch of incantations on the CLI to get controller support working after Flatpak installation. This pretty much solidifies its flaws as a format. "Table stakes" apps should just work.