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I wonder what avenues there are for Harvard to challenge this; it looks like the mechanism the Trump Admin used was for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS

I wonder what avenues there are for Harvard to challenge this; it looks like the mechanism the Trump Admin used was for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to cancel Harvard's Student and Exchange Visitor Program (SEVP) certification [0] which is managed by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) [1]. Does ICE just have full discretion over SEVP? Can they do this to any school for whatever reason they want? [0] https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/05/22/harvard-university-loses-student-and-exchange-visitor-program-certification-pro https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/05/22/harvard-university-loses... [1] https://www.dhs.gov/publication/dhsicepia-001-student-exchange-visitor-information-system-sevis https://www.dhs.gov/publication/dhsicepia-001-student-exchan...

ty6853 1y ago
The actual letter explains they can regain status by ratting out their students. It will quietly be done, although likely in a way that make it look as if Harvard hasn't.
- yongjik 1y ago
  Maybe, but I doubt it. Trump is not a mafia boss - time after time he showed that his words cannot be trusted. If Harvard makes a concession, there's no guarantee that Trump will "forgive" it. Look how China is dealing with Trump. Trump announces tariffs, China returns Boeing planes, tariffs somehow comes down.
  - cozzyd 1y ago
    It's too bad Barron was too dumb to enroll at Harvard so his admission couldn't be rescinded
  - nicoburns 1y ago
    As a sovereign nation, China is in a somewhat different position than Harvard which is subject to US law.
  - thaumasiotes 1y ago
    > Trump is not a mafia boss - time after time he showed that his words cannot be trusted. If Harvard makes a concession, there's no guarantee that Trump will "forgive" it. > Look how China is dealing with Trump. Trump announces tariffs, China returns Boeing planes, tariffs somehow comes down. Doesn't this example make the opposite of your point?
    - yongjik 1y ago
      The point I'm trying to make is: if Trump bullies you, and you make a concession, Trump will feel no obligations to pay you back and may bully you further. China played hardball (up to some degree - I'm sure there were backstage talks), and that apparently made Trump "respect" China more.
  - jaybrendansmith 1y ago
    Penn should support Harvard and publicly revoke Trump's degree. Bullies only understand force.
    - QuarterReptile 1y ago
      What force does that possibly employ? When you revoke the degree of a sitting president, that costs him...?
      - staticautomatic 1y ago
        It costs him the only thing he cares about: his ego
        QuarterReptile 1y ago
        I see two risks with your analysis. First, you generally underestimate a person if you try to distill his personality into one negative trait (or, for that matter, if you select a bunch of negative traits but assume no positive.) Second, he's still the president, so I don't see what pull the Penn degree has vs. that.
        jaybrendansmith 1y ago
        Justice.
- mcphage 1y ago
  > The actual letter explains they can regain status by ratting out their students. Trump's history has shown that if you cave into his demands, he doesn't leave you alone—instead he starts demanding even more, since he knows you'll fold.
  - _aavaa_ 1y ago
    Classic schoolyard bully behavior.
  - throwawaymaths 1y ago
    can you give an example?
    - magicalist 1y ago
      > can you give an example? https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/politics-elections/2025/04/09/nih-freezes-millions-more-funding-columbia https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/politics-elec...
      - throwawaymaths 1y ago
        thanks!
    - Larrikin 1y ago
      Everything Columbia University did and what they got in return.
      - throwawaymaths 1y ago
        i was hoping for an example out of this particular domain (because i cant think of one), but it'll do.
        stevenwoo 1y ago
        Apple just got warned if they don’t bring manufacturing to USA they will be hit by company specific tariffs after Tim Cook bent the knee twice with personal pleas to lower tariffs for a bit and million dollar personal donations.
- dionian 1y ago
  'ratting out' how? this implies they did something wrong
  - bilbo0s 1y ago
    Doesn't matter anyway. Pretty much a guarantee that Harvard will choose to stay the course. This is the quintessential organization that thinks along the lines of, "100 years from now Harvard will still be Harvard. And Trump will be one of the answers on a middle school history exam". Expect escalation.
  - ty6853 1y ago
    Ratting out in my mind means informing authorities in a way that something negative might be expected to happen to the subject. For instance, I don't think smoking weed is wrong, but if I go tell an officer you have weed in your car, I have ratted you out despite nothing 'wrong' happening.
  - Aeolun 1y ago
    If you provide information to an actor when you have a clear indication that said actor will then take disproportionate action against the one on which you provide information, how is that not wrong?
firesteelrain 1y ago
Under 8 U.S.C. § 1372, the SEVIS (Student and Exchange Visitor Information System) program requires schools to report data on international students including what DHS has been asking for. Harvard may argue that DHS’s request was overly broad, lacked due process, or sought information beyond what the law permits. 8 CFR § 214.3(g) and § 214.4(b), which require schools to maintain and furnish records “as required by the Service,” including disciplinary actions and other conduct relevant to maintaining status. 8 CFR § 214.3(l)(2)(iii) allows for withdrawal of certification if a school fails to “provide requested documentation” to DHS. Not to mention other overly broad immigration laws But given the laws on the books, DHS has broad authority to take this action. Not arguing one way or the other just laying out the facts. This could have happened under the prior administration if the law was applied
- throwawaymaths 1y ago
  yep. the laws have been written to be broad... my best guess would be the best legal argument Harvard could claim would be that it construes the existing law as a bill of attainder (a law targetted at an individual or group of individuals called out by person -- versus called out by some category of actions -- that is judged without trial)
- selfselfgo 1y ago
  [dead]
- hackyhacky 1y ago
  [flagged]
- dmvdoug 1y ago
  The actual statute provides the categories of information schools must provide about their students. It’s not a “whatever we happen to ask for” list. See 8 U.S.C. § 1372. Needless to say, “protest activity” is not included.
  - firesteelrain 1y ago
    We do not know yet what Harvard did and did not respond to. All we have is their word. If they didn’t provide what was required after DHS demanded what was legally required to be provided then DHS is on solid legal ground. I can’t really defend not providing something that isn’t called out as part of the law though
vharuck 1y ago
They could argue it is an arbitrary or capricious action by the agency: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/706 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/706 If Harvard has maintained approval for international students, and Harvard's policies with respect to the approval haven't changed recently, then withdrawing approval would be arbitrary.

ty6853 1y ago

The actual letter explains they can regain status by ratting out their students. It will quietly be done, although likely in a way that make it look as if Harvard hasn't.

yongjik 1y ago
Maybe, but I doubt it. Trump is not a mafia boss - time after time he showed that his words cannot be trusted. If Harvard makes a concession, there's no guarantee that Trump will "forgive" it. Look how China is dealing with Trump. Trump announces tariffs, China returns Boeing planes, tariffs somehow comes down.
- cozzyd 1y ago
  It's too bad Barron was too dumb to enroll at Harvard so his admission couldn't be rescinded
- nicoburns 1y ago
  As a sovereign nation, China is in a somewhat different position than Harvard which is subject to US law.
- thaumasiotes 1y ago
  > Trump is not a mafia boss - time after time he showed that his words cannot be trusted. If Harvard makes a concession, there's no guarantee that Trump will "forgive" it. > Look how China is dealing with Trump. Trump announces tariffs, China returns Boeing planes, tariffs somehow comes down. Doesn't this example make the opposite of your point?
  - yongjik 1y ago
    The point I'm trying to make is: if Trump bullies you, and you make a concession, Trump will feel no obligations to pay you back and may bully you further. China played hardball (up to some degree - I'm sure there were backstage talks), and that apparently made Trump "respect" China more.
- jaybrendansmith 1y ago
  Penn should support Harvard and publicly revoke Trump's degree. Bullies only understand force.
  - QuarterReptile 1y ago
    What force does that possibly employ? When you revoke the degree of a sitting president, that costs him...?
    - staticautomatic 1y ago
      It costs him the only thing he cares about: his ego
      - QuarterReptile 1y ago
        I see two risks with your analysis. First, you generally underestimate a person if you try to distill his personality into one negative trait (or, for that matter, if you select a bunch of negative traits but assume no positive.) Second, he's still the president, so I don't see what pull the Penn degree has vs. that.
        jaybrendansmith 1y ago
        Justice.
mcphage 1y ago
> The actual letter explains they can regain status by ratting out their students. Trump's history has shown that if you cave into his demands, he doesn't leave you alone—instead he starts demanding even more, since he knows you'll fold.
- _aavaa_ 1y ago
  Classic schoolyard bully behavior.
- throwawaymaths 1y ago
  can you give an example?
  - magicalist 1y ago
    > can you give an example? https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/politics-elections/2025/04/09/nih-freezes-millions-more-funding-columbia https://www.insidehighered.com/news/government/politics-elec...
    - throwawaymaths 1y ago
      thanks!
  - Larrikin 1y ago
    Everything Columbia University did and what they got in return.
    - throwawaymaths 1y ago
      i was hoping for an example out of this particular domain (because i cant think of one), but it'll do.
      - stevenwoo 1y ago
        Apple just got warned if they don’t bring manufacturing to USA they will be hit by company specific tariffs after Tim Cook bent the knee twice with personal pleas to lower tariffs for a bit and million dollar personal donations.
dionian 1y ago
'ratting out' how? this implies they did something wrong
- bilbo0s 1y ago
  Doesn't matter anyway. Pretty much a guarantee that Harvard will choose to stay the course. This is the quintessential organization that thinks along the lines of, "100 years from now Harvard will still be Harvard. And Trump will be one of the answers on a middle school history exam". Expect escalation.
- ty6853 1y ago
  Ratting out in my mind means informing authorities in a way that something negative might be expected to happen to the subject. For instance, I don't think smoking weed is wrong, but if I go tell an officer you have weed in your car, I have ratted you out despite nothing 'wrong' happening.
- Aeolun 1y ago
  If you provide information to an actor when you have a clear indication that said actor will then take disproportionate action against the one on which you provide information, how is that not wrong?

firesteelrain 1y ago

Under 8 U.S.C. § 1372, the SEVIS (Student and Exchange Visitor Information System) program requires schools to report data on international students including what DHS has been asking for. Harvard may argue that DHS’s request was overly broad, lacked due process, or sought information beyond what the law permits. 8 CFR § 214.3(g) and § 214.4(b), which require schools to maintain and furnish records “as required by the Service,” including disciplinary actions and other conduct relevant to maintaining status. 8 CFR § 214.3(l)(2)(iii) allows for withdrawal of certification if a school fails to “provide requested documentation” to DHS. Not to mention other overly broad immigration laws But given the laws on the books, DHS has broad authority to take this action. Not arguing one way or the other just laying out the facts. This could have happened under the prior administration if the law was applied

throwawaymaths 1y ago
yep. the laws have been written to be broad... my best guess would be the best legal argument Harvard could claim would be that it construes the existing law as a bill of attainder (a law targetted at an individual or group of individuals called out by person -- versus called out by some category of actions -- that is judged without trial)
selfselfgo 1y ago
[dead]
hackyhacky 1y ago
[flagged]
dmvdoug 1y ago
The actual statute provides the categories of information schools must provide about their students. It’s not a “whatever we happen to ask for” list. See 8 U.S.C. § 1372. Needless to say, “protest activity” is not included.
- firesteelrain 1y ago
  We do not know yet what Harvard did and did not respond to. All we have is their word. If they didn’t provide what was required after DHS demanded what was legally required to be provided then DHS is on solid legal ground. I can’t really defend not providing something that isn’t called out as part of the law though

vharuck 1y ago

They could argue it is an arbitrary or capricious action by the agency: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/706 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/706 If Harvard has maintained approval for international students, and Harvard's policies with respect to the approval haven't changed recently, then withdrawing approval would be arbitrary.