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I wonder if 2025 will be the year of Linux. Windows has turned itself into spyware. Apple is too expensive and going the same way. Meanwhile the user experien

I wonder if 2025 will be the year of Linux. Windows has turned itself into spyware. Apple is too expensive and going the same way. Meanwhile the user experience of Linux has dramatically increased. Put on a good skin and most people wouldn't notice the difference. You don't need to reply that you can, I know you can. You're on HN. But most people just use their computer for the browser and most people can't tell Chrome from Firefox. Most people get their lockin by their tech friend or child. Really, Microsoft's only lockin remains Office. It won't be a complete shift but the signs of growing userbase is there. Would be a huge win for open source! If you haven't tried Linux in a few years try giving something like PopOS a go or if you want to say you use Arch then try EndeavourOS. Both are very stable, latter slightly less. Edit: enfuse was right, I should have suggested EndeavourOS instead of Manjaro.

TacticalCoder 1y ago
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x0xrx 1y ago
Scammers successfully sell reskinned Android phones as iPhones to unsuspecting marks, I’m sure you’re right that many people wouldn’t notice.
andy_xor_andrew 1y ago
just saying, the comment you just wrote could have appeared, word for word, on any HN discussion in the last 20 years. The only words that would have to change are "PopOS" / "Arch" / "Manjaro" for more timely distros. (and Chrome didn't exist until ~2009)
- fsflover 1y ago
  This has been indeed more or less true for a long time, if you speak of preinstalled GNU/Linux, not using a "Windows-certified" hardware.
- godelski 1y ago
  I really don't think so. We didn't have GUI installers 20 years ago. I think you're undermining the advances linux has made. I think it is harder for us on the techy side to see but having been getting people to switch to linux over the last 10 years I can say that the last 5 have been significantly easier.
  - vel0city 1y ago
    There were GUI installers for a few distros 19 years ago. I remember using a graphical installer for Ubuntu 6.06. But even then back in the day I remember Windows applications that would partition and install a Linux distro for dual boot from within Windows.
  - okanat 1y ago
    We did have GUI installers in 2005. At least SUSE did. Linux hasn't made much significant changes to its core architecture. There are better implementations for many things like Pulseaudio and Pipewire or Wayland compositors are a bit more streamlined than X11. The core issues existed in 2005 still exist in exact form: how do you make money for the software devs on Linux, how to bring good closed-source software support for decades. If Linux cannot solve those two problems, it will not replace Windows. I think, without changing the software architecture to look more Windows-like, the latter problem cannot be feasibly solved.
Retr0id 1y ago
I'd like this to be true, but Windows has been getting incrementally more user-hostile for a long time now. I'm not sure this change is going to mark any particular tipping point.
- matthewdgreen 1y ago
  I just want to vent here about the recent experience I had buying and installing MS Office 365 for my wife’s small business. I had assumed since the competition is effortless and free, MS would at least make Office for Desktop relatively easy to pay for. Instead I got suckered into paying for “Basic”, which doesn’t support desktop apps. The “supports desktop apps” version costs more, but the big problem is it’s not explained within the apps what you need to upgrade to (there are many plans.) Then once you finally figure out how to upgrade, the subscription and payment sites repeatedly error out. Once you force through an immediate upgrade, it turns out that it’s not immediate and takes an hour to go through. This is mostly just venting, but if the “please take my money” pathways of MS’s most popular product work this badly, I don’t even want to think about ever going back to Windows.
  - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
    What many have yet to notice is that Microsoft now makes more money from Cloud than they do from Windows, so the purpose of Windows is now as the funnel for Microsoft's cloud services. It's like using an operating system made by GoDaddy.
- godelski 1y ago
  I think it can be true, but we have to make it happen. One of the biggest problems I see is that we complain about things like Linux in these comparative settings, as if we don't have to make a choice. It's like saying you don't want to eat a cookie because the chef sneezed in it and instead giving you a cookie the chef took a shit in. Sure, I'd rather have neither, but if I have to eat a cookie I know which one I'd choose.
  - Retr0id 1y ago
neogodless 1y ago
Average computer users could probably switch... but it would require one of two things: Some way to make it ridiculously low friction for existing hardware owners to get into Linux. Like, less friction than downloading an ISO, mounting it, and installing it on your computer. Or make computers come with it when people buy them. (This is still vanishingly rare.) ** As a power user... I still have a few issues, some that might be common, and some that might be quite rare/unique to me. For example, post-concussion I really can't stand low refresh rates, and screen brightness is important to me. During my last 2-month Linux experiment, I had issues with controlling those things which was a mix of hardware, drivers, Linux kernel, GPU modes, etc. These sort of issues seem to be less and less common in Linux, and I'm optimistic, but I also am hesitant to sacrifice my own health to make a switch away from Windows. (Mental health aside.) And some games still don't work right, at least not on launch. Which can make me sad as someone who plays games socially. As a photographer, I bought and use DxO PhotoLab. I've compared alternatives, and I like it much better. It doesn't mean I couldn't use darktable but I definitely don't like it anywhere near as much. (And no, DxO does not support Linux.)
- twosdai 1y ago
  System 76 makes a great product in this space honestly. I always recommend them to people who are interested in trying linux. They ship with linux pre-installed, its exactly like buying a dell with windows. https://system76.com/ https://system76.com/ I am not affliated with them, I am a customer and I like their products.
  - nicholasjarnold 1y ago
    I concur. I own a System 76 laptop, and it runs PopOS. It's been stable for years (taking the regular updates). They make a variety of hardware products ranging from portable/lightweight laptop to beefy engineering workstation. (also not affiliated with them, just want to support good products/company)
  - astrolx 1y ago
    This. I bought a System76 laptop in 2011 which is still working very well with lubuntu for office and browser and such, it's now the laptop of my neighbourhood association. I could without problem upgrade RAM and drive to SSD, I could even swap the keyboard after I broke it. I bought a new one from them this year, still incredible hardware. My only issue with them, which is a big one, is that they ship only from USA. So as EU customer I have to pay VAT on top!
WD-42 1y ago
The problem is, until laptops sold at Walmart or Best Buy start coming with Linux pre-installed as an option, adoption will never happen. Installing an aftermarket OS is just an incredibly unrealistic expectation from the average user. Microsoft knows this, and they will do everything they can to prevent OEMs from shipping anything other than Windows. Apple of course, forget it. Their profit comes from leeching off FOSS and selling it, they would never allow distribution of it directly.
- CalRobert 1y ago
  For what it's worth, it can almost be done (but is still a minority) https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/appref=ubuntu-linux-os https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/app...
- fsflover 1y ago
  Purism and System76 offer laptops with preinstalled GNU/Linux.
  - throitallaway 1y ago
    Lenovo currently offers Linux (Ubuntu) as an option Thinkpads. Dell used to once upon a time; I don't know if they still do.
    - lupusreal 1y ago
      Dell still does. https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/appref=ubuntu-linux-os https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/app...
  - WD-42 1y ago
    Yes and they are great. But you have to already know they exist and seek them out.
    - mingus88 1y ago
enfuse 1y ago
> or if you want to say you use Arch then try Manjaro EndeavourOS preferred over Manjaro.
- jamespo 1y ago
  EndeavourOS with the niri window manager is a wonderful experience
- godelski 1y ago
  You're right. Not sure why I didn't say that. I updated:)
MeruMeru 1y ago
I am definitely moving to Linux this year. I'm a not a developer, but I am willing to tackle the learning curve. I have been a Windows user from my very first computer, my first internship was at Microsoft. But I am done with the directions they have taken these past years!
- WD-42 1y ago
  Enjoy! Keep an open mind and you'll discover computing can still be very fun!
- godelski 1y ago
  Awesome! Great to hear! There definitely can be some hurdles depending on what your goals are. If you're mainly browser user, don't stress. If gamer, go PopOS (if want to be a bit more, EndeavourOS is a good recommend). If you do want to learn linux, then I actually suggest doing things "the hard way". That is installing Arch (fastest newbie I've seen is install on the 4th attempt) and try living in the terminal. The failures lead to a lot of learning. But it is a good way to learn because it forces you to get your hands dirty and makes you quick to not be afraid because well... you will have already experienced fucking up and it is less scary once you have haha. It's one of those things where you don't feel like you're making progress but boy do you learn fast this way. But this of course is not what everyone should do! I just wanted to offer the advice in case you or anyone does. I am being serious about it being the hard way. But it pays off.
immibis 1y ago
Linux still suffers the same flaw as always, though: it's just bad. And the projects that claim to make it better end up being a lot like Microsoft or Apple. You or I can use Linux, because we're the same type of people who visit Hacker News. It's also completely possible to get your great-grandma on Linux, since the web browsers work the same and you can install the specific apps they need to use and they'll never care about anything else. But the middle user is working in an office exchanging Microsoft Office documents all day, making video calls through Teams, and using one out of a zillion business apps developed specifically for Windows. We need more free and good projects, and the problem is, that costs time, and in between Richard Stallman's heyday and now, the rent's quadrupled.
- astrolx 1y ago
  I'd like to see stats about that middle user though, I would think that this usecase decreases fast as things are moving to the browser (Office366, Drive, mail, even corporate apps). Other types of usecases have gone very Linux-friendly recently (e.g video games thanks to Valve).
- palata 1y ago
  > Linux still suffers the same flaw as always, though: it's just bad. It's not bad for me. "Bad" is subjective. Sure, it's not a good fit for "normal people". But as long as it's not targetting "normal people", I don't see how this is a problem.
School-Cotton 1y ago
Average people nowadays don't really use general-purpose computers at home. They use whatever their work provides at the office (which will continue to be Windows for most people and macOS for prestigious or highly-paid jobs), and use phones at home.
numpad0 1y ago
> Put on a good skin and most people wouldn't notice the difference. I doubt it. Common people can't interpret GUI and discover features unlike developers who'd prefer dynamic "intuitive" interfaces. They rely more on dumb fixed rote memorization. Most recent example of failure of this approach is Windows Settings app. Not only a lot of configuration panes started to mimic old Control Panel in both features layouts, even verbiages, many had become a mere shortcut links to old Control Panel applets.
- godelski 1y ago
  To be fair, I can't figure out how to use OSX. I'm constantly going down the wrong menu paths. Same when someone asks me to use Windows, and in a completely different manner. My point is that it's not like there's an objectively good way to do this. That people just get used to doing things one way or another. And frankly, with Linux you can copy those same structures and that's what I mean by "skin". You really can make it feel a lot like Windows or OSX and that really reduces the dissonance.
  - numpad0 1y ago
    So it's not from skin and down, but from metal up to the skin, or the kernel and userland. It'll have to be ReactOS approach that don't necessarily have the exact Windows 11 theme.
noman-land 1y ago
Here's one data point. My grandmother and mother now both use Raspberry Pis as their primary computers and are 100% satisfied. My father is looking to switch as well and he's been setting up a GrapheneOS phone I made for him which runs flawlessly. If year of Linux doesn't arrive by choice, authoritarianism will force the issue one way or another.
- mikepurvis 1y ago
  My kids have an old Thinkpad T440p that's their Scratch/Roblox/Minecraft machine, and overall it works well enough running Ubuntu (originally 22.04, then 24.04, now 25.04). But it has been far from seamless: - the built in bluetooth and wifi can't be used at the same time; for a while we mitigated this with a USB wifi module, but that eventually broke and so now bluetooth is just disabled. - it's hard to figure out what apps and app data are shared between users. AFAICT there's one Steam install my kids are sharing, but each one installs their own copy of a game, which is terrible for disk usage. - a bunch of games don't work, especially from non-steam sources like Epic and Itch.io. I've heard about the Heroic Launcher, and I will try it at some point, but it's just... one more fiddly thing to have to mess with. - several Minecraft launchers / mod-managers have been tried, but I can't seem to keep my Microsoft account logged in on there, so I eventually just put my password on a sticky note so they could re-auth it whenever needed (fortunately I don't use it for anything else). - unattended-upgrades pulled a new kernel and the thing just panicked on startup until I went into the grub menu to get the previous one and reverted. - until 25.04 the power management story was terrible, the machine would chew through the whole (newly replaced) battery in less than an hour. As a competent nerd I've been ~fine with all this, but it's honestly right on the edge of acceptable. I expect a normal person would immediately give up in the face of most of these— either give up in terms of ditching the machine/OS or give up as in accepting a limitation like it just doesn't play that game or I just can't use my earbuds.
  - test1235 1y ago
    This is a perspective I'd like to hear more often. Too often I hear all these supposed ideal solutions without mentioning the pitfalls of having to support a non-technical family. Pi hole is a good example. Do all websites (and other services) still work perfectly but without ads, or am I going to have to endure sighing and eyerolling everytime someone asks me why their site isn't loading (again)?
nickthegreek 1y ago
>Windows has turned itself into spyware. Apple is too expensive and going the same way. There is nothing too expensive about an M series mac mini.
- godelski 1y ago
  They're great little computers but you're kidding if you think $400 to upgrade to 1Tb (from 256G) is not priced. I can get 2Tb of gen 5 NVMe for under $300. Same issue with RAM, but at least at 16Gb most people don't need to upgrade. Come on. You can still think they're great while admitting they're over priced. Those aren't in contention.
  - lurking_swe 1y ago
    your typical casual user needs 2TB of local storage (outside the cloud)? that’s news to me. I agree it’s overpriced, and it bugs me too. But i still recommend mac’s to my less tech savvy family and friends. Why? I’m not interested in being their tech support, and also, it’s trivial to buy a portable 2TB thunderbolt 4 SSD for $200-$300, if the need arises in the future. In fact an external SSD is even easier to replace/upgrade than an internal ssd (generally speaking). i think we’re losing sight of the topic here. CASUAL USERS :)
    - godelski 1y ago
      > your typical casual user needs 2TB of local storage (outside the cloud)? that’s news to me. That is *NOT* what I said... and you know it... I don't believe 256GB is sufficient for the typical casual user. Apple knows it too. But $200 to upgrade FROM 256GB TO 512GB is, as you asked "too expensive". It is "too expensive" BECAUSE comparable off-the-shelf hardware is significantly less AND has better performance. We're also talking about a level of performance most people will not notice the difference between. I cannot find a 512GB NVMe drive that is PCIe 5.0, but here is a 1Tb one that costs $170[0]. They key point here being that you get twice the storage for 85% the price OF UPGRADING. That drive suggests it gets 14.7GBps reads and 13.3GBps writes while this Reddit user shows their Mac Mini M4 gets UNDER 3GBps for both read and write[1]. It definitely would go higher with the 512 variant because those disks are suffering from the same issue that the M2 Air suffered from... but that doesn't change the price that you pay more for less. You pay more for SIGNIFICANTLY less. > I think we’re losing sight of the topic here. CASUAL USERS :) It wasn't me... The question wasn't what you'd recommend to your less tech savvy friends and family, the question was if something was over priced. P.S. iPhones won't capitalize a singular "i", as would be the proper grammatical usage. P.S.S. External drives aren't just annoying, they're slower too. [0] https://www.newegg.com/samsung-1tb-9100-pro-nvme-2-0/p/N82E16820147902 https://www.newegg.com/samsung-1tb-9100-pro-nvme-2-0/p/N82E1... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/macmini/comments/1gmxrzc/base_m4_mac_mini_256gb_ssd_benchmarks/ https://www.reddit.com/r/macmini/comments/1gmxrzc/base_m4_ma...
mingus88 1y ago
You will need to cite your sources that Apple is going the same way. From what I see, Apple has launched private cloud compute with better privacy safeguards than any other big tech firm. In fact, their personal assistant is the worst one because it is so dumb. They don’t seem to make money from your data because, as you say, they have already made huge margins on hardware and apps.
- fsflover 1y ago
  > You will need to cite your sources that Apple is going the same way. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43047952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43047952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43003230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43003230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42014588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42014588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433 https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/04/10/apple-makes-it-really-hard-for-users-to-completely-stop-it-from-collecting-data https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/04/10/apple-makes-it-re... https://sneak.berlin/20231005/apple-operating-system-surveillance/ https://sneak.berlin/20231005/apple-operating-system-surveil... > They don’t seem to make money from your data It's changing: https://www.macrumors.com/2024/11/19/apple-now-directly-selling-ads-in-news-app/ https://www.macrumors.com/2024/11/19/apple-now-directly-sell... And finally: Apple's Software Quality Crisis (eliseomartelli.it) 1196 points by ajdude 79 days ago | 1213 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43243075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43243075
  - fsflover 1y ago
    Why quiet downvotes? My links demonstrate that Apple is collecting a lot of data, not giving an easy choice for the opt-out and starting to use that for ads. Also the software is getting worse.
    - godelski 1y ago
      Heated topic. Don't let it get to you. People like having tribes. (I'm definitely in a tribe too. But I hope my comments here, and elsewhere, show that I'm more than willing to criticize the tribes I affiliate with)
presbyterian 1y ago
> Apple is too expensive Is it? You can get an M1 MacBook Air at Walmart for $699 now. That's more than many of the bottom-of-the-barrel Windows machines out there, but it's not an unreasonable price at all. It'll keep away the lowest-end users, but most of those users 1) are not going to care about the security issues, because they don't know anything about computers beyond base utility, and 2) have mostly switched to doing everything on their phone/tablet, and aren't as big of the computer demographic these days anyway.
- Almondsetat 1y ago
  $699 for a computer that will stop getting updates in just a few years
  - copperx 1y ago
    That's about 6 years. Plenty enough for a laptop that's not upgradeable.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
    For some perspective: Computer Shopper 1993 GW2K 386SX at $1300. Today that is $2800. That $699 Mac is getting you a machine that would have been a TOP500 supercomputer in the 90s.
    - throitallaway 1y ago
      If my Grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike. Yes, things change over time. I cringe to think of what some of the original 42" flat screen displays cost relative to the huge (much better looking) OLED panels of today.
    - lxgr 1y ago
      And your credit card has a more powerful computer than the Apollo lunar lander. But software development (for both OS and applications) is continuing in parallel with hardware improvements, so there's a strong implicit demand of you to also continue upgrading, at least if you need to interoperate with any other computer in the world.
wyager 1y ago
> Apple is too expensive On literally what metric? Even if you do the most naive comparison of compute and storage, Apple now comes out ahead much of the time, to say nothing of differences around quality, display, controls, etc.
- MisterBastahrd 1y ago
  On the metric that people see PCs as disposable appliances and don't consider a small format box like a Mac Mini to be a real computing device. They don't give a crap about "compute," they care if they can open their web browser, outlook, and play their little slot machine game. You're not gonna get Meemaw who spent her entire career as a secretary working with Windows machines to go to Mac just because you like the specs. Hell, my mom has owned the same PC for 15 years now and I can't get her to move away from THAT.
- fsflover 1y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44055640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44055640
anal_reactor 1y ago
I cannot recommend Linux to my parents simply because they're too attached to MS Office. Anyway, I wonder to what distribution should I switch to.
- throitallaway 1y ago
  Do they use MS Office for work, or just simple hobby stuff? If it's work stuff - leave them alone. For hobby stuff LibreOffice is a good replacement that you can trial on Windows. As far as distros go, I don't like some of the decisions that Canonical has made with Ubuntu, but it's hard to argue with how simple, reliable, and complete it is. I don't want to run it for myself, but it's great for some people.
oweiler 1y ago
I have read almost the same thing 5yrs ago. And 5yrs before that. And so on.
- Klonoar 1y ago
  I remember posting basically their comment on /. something like 20 years ago.
- godelski 1y ago
  Same about AI Could have happened 5 years ago. Could have happened 5 years before that. But it won't ever happen if the techy people that have the capabilities of making it happen are too busy self-righteously laughing about how it hasn't happened yet. Luckily that doesn't stop progress, but it sure doesn't let it get to the speed it could. Meanwhile, I hope you're happy with the state of things. You have every right to point and laugh if you are happy with the direction Microsoft, Apple, and Google have led us. But if you aren't, it isn't too late to make efforts to change those directions. If we're going to reference the past, let's not hyper-fixate on every failed "call to arms" while ignoring how future they were trying to fight actually happened...
amatecha 1y ago
A couple years ago was "the year of" open source OSes for me. I only have one remaining machine running Windows, and it just sits there doing nothing because I don't actually use it anymore. Same with my one remaining Apple machine. Well, I mean I have a couple retro machines that aren't in everyday use of course. Everything else is running Linux or BSD.
jimbob45 1y ago
Apple is too expensive and going the same way. Apple would have had near 100% OS market share if they’d have tossed their hardware restrictions.
lxgr 1y ago
The time of Linux on the desktop is now, but the era of desktops itself has passed.
- bluebarbet 1y ago
  This is the crucial point that makes the whole question somewhat moot. Only one other of the 20-odd peers in this thread acknowledges it. Once again I'm disappointed by how out of touch the techies here seem to be.
dokyun 1y ago
> Windows has turned itself into spyware Has?
chronid 1y ago
I have plenty of hard disagreements on the "user experience improvements" in Linux. "Adding a skin" is not easy and making the experience somewhat coherent is extremely hard (GNOME is sort of successful at an extreme cost and plenty of limitations, KDE is still an incoherent mess with plenty of bad defaults starting from the base CDDM skin). It's full of things like the missing icon view in the GNOME/GTK file chooser [1] and while it's true that Windows11 is atrocious, all those little things add up. I actually recovered a laptop my family was using to launch firefox by installing linux on it (soldered ram went bad, linux is the only OS I could use to tell it to skip the bad blocks through kernel command line) but I hold no illusion about its level of "user experience". Just look at the comments in this recent thread [2]. And as a power user I am baffled by some of the choices at the kernel level (which I mentioned in that thread) and others closer to the user by distros (ubuntu and snaps, name an iconic duo), or things like flatpak not being close to ready and still shoved down user's throats... I spent years when I was younger submitting bug reports for the papercuts I noticed - some ignored for years, some closed and forgotten forever when some project decided to move on from bugzilla - and I have no more time or energy to continue doing so. The maintainers after all write the code, I'm just a user and get no voice :) I've been reading about the "year of linux" for years now, it's a meme for a reason. People that are not "prosumer" will keep using the preinstalled OS even if it's garbage - assuming they buy a laptop or desktop at all - and the prosumer will probably keep an OSX or a Windows machine close by anyway. Linux is usable as a browser kiosk sure but there is still plenty of friction on everything else. Enshittification will continue, and possibly infect also linux. [1] https://www.omglinux.com/gnome-thumbnails-file-picker/ https://www.omglinux.com/gnome-thumbnails-file-picker/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43945373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43945373
- godelski 1y ago
  > "Adding a skin" is not easy and making the experience somewhat coherent is extremely hard I don't mean to imply this is easy. But I also do know that these efforts have been in the works for quite some time. They can get more dedication if that's the direction we need to go. Quick Google - 3 free Linux distros that look and feel like Windows: https://www.pcworld.com/article/2532994/3-free-linux-distros-that-look-and-feel-like-windows.html - 5 Linux Distributions That are Inspired by the Look and Feel of macOS: https://itsfoss.com/macos-like-linux-distros/ > soldered ram went bad, linux is the only OS I could use to tell it to skip the bad blocks through kernel command line IDK how to tell you this, but for 90% of people this is "throw the machine out, buy a new one." I'm really not sure what the critique is here. Even if running with more problems seems unsurprising given what you described. And you're talking about the kernel. I don't deny that there are problems with Linux, nor that things need to improve to get better mass appeal. But I do think you should look at your own words. They're highly technical. And we should not forget how this would compare when discussing Windows or OSX. That's the choice! It's that these conversations of "Linux sucks" are not just complaints about Linux, they are also suggestions of using Windows or OSX. The context of our conversation is about choosing between these systems, not the existence of problems. I want to be very clear Linux is a dumpster fire. This does not mean Windows isn't! This does not mean OSX isn't! The argument I'm making is that this doesn't matter for the general user. Fuck, it generally doesn't matter for the technical user. But there is a good reason why technical/power users have a strong bias towards using Linux. Because at least it is a dumpster fire they can fix. It is absurd to have the framing that we should not encourage people to use Linux in favor of them using systems that are user hostile and destroying all sense of personal privacy! These arguments become equivalent to: "You don't want to eat that, the chef sneezed in it. Here, eat this cake instead. The chef only took a shit in it." Idk about you, but give the choice, I'd rather take the sneeze than the shit. I'd (strongly) prefer neither, but frankly that isn't an option now, is it? And let's be honest, if you want to get more resources to put out more fires, the only way that's going to happen is if there are more users.
sapphicsnail 1y ago
Has anyone had success setting up a Linux machine and handing it off to a less tech savvy friend? I've had some people asking about it but I have techie brain and I don't know what's usable to normal people.
- fsflover 1y ago
  Debian with Xfce has been flawless for my non-tech-savy relatives for years.
- encom 1y ago
  One data point: I installed Fedora on my moms machine. She hasn't even mentioned it. She just clicks the Chrome icon.
- __aru 1y ago
  Depends on how the user uses their computer. Web browser + maybe some printing? Throw on Linux Mint + Firefox + uBlock origin, hook up a compatible printer via usb cable, and call it a day. That's what I did for my 65 year old relatives, and it's been maintenance free.
acaloiar 1y ago
I love linux. It's been my primary OS nearly my whole life. It's not the year of linux.
TimTheTinker 1y ago
> Would be a huge win for open source! Just keep in mind that widespread Linux adoption means it will lose something special it has had from being relatively small on the desktop. This would be another Eternal September ... including a massive influx of entitled users and all that. Because of that effect, I think there needs to be one or more for-profit Linux OS vendors prepared to absorb all the support and feedback needs (and contribute upstream, of course), and OEMs should only use it/them for anyone besides "advanced users and developers" or similar verbage. SteamOS maybe?
- nan60 1y ago
  I've never understood why Red Hat never tried breaking into this space. People clearly don't mind paying for an OS and RHEL is pretty much as polished and well supported as you can get. A fork of RHEL geared towards home use would be fantastic. I know Fedora exists but it isn't backed by RH the way RHEL is.
  - nemomarx 1y ago
    Getting people to pay for an OS when the mainstream alternatives come bundled with hardware seems like a big lift. If they could work with system 76 or something maybe yeah
  - 360MustangScope 1y ago
    Just like other companies, home users do not make much money compared to enterprises. No home user will pay $10,000 annually for example and think nothing of it. Enterprises is where the money is, that is also why a company like Cisco do not make consumer devices
  - em-bee 1y ago
    they were. before RHEL, red hat linux was sold as desktop operating system to consumers. as was SUSE and a few others.
    - nan60 1y ago
      Ah, I didn't actually know this! I wasn't around for the early days of Linux so I don't know much about it.
Tistron 1y ago
Has anyone else managed to make a trackpad that is even close to as good as what apple makes? I've never tried a non-apple trackpad that didn't suck.
palata 1y ago
> Would be a huge win for open source! Not sure. I don't want people who want Windows to come to Linux because Windows has become a spyware. The result will be a bunch of entitled users asking for Linux to look more like Windows. Anyone who has maintained an open source project knows how consumers of open source suck. "Your free project that you develop in your free time sucks" or "I won't make you the honour to use your project if you don't spend 2 weeks adding this feature I want". A mass influx of Windows people who want Windows-without-the-spyware would probably make this worse for Linux.
- ajsnigrutin 1y ago
  getting windows users to linux is a pain.... "I want BSplayer, how do I make it work?", and no other player will ever be good enough as BSplayer. And sometimes it's not even a good piece of software, but some stupid windows only thing that not even windows users use anymore.
asadm 1y ago
Apple is expensive? I can get an refurb M1 for $400, which is still worthy (I use it for my main dev work, docker, cmake, qemu, nodejs and all)
- bigfatkitten 1y ago
  Still blows the doors off a good many x86 machines you can buy new today, with twice the battery life.
palata 1y ago
I feel like we are getting closer to the year of convergence... but with Android. Google is apparently working on it. Many of my friends don't even have a computer: they do everything on their phone. If they could plug their phone to a dock station for the few times they need a keyboard and a bigger screen, they would be fine.
- shmeeed 1y ago
  >If they could plug their phone to a dock station for the few times they need a keyboard and a bigger screen, they would be fine. Samsung DeX does this, and I think similar solutions or workarounds are available for other manufacturers via USB-DP Alt Mode and BT for input devices. I don't know anyone who uses it, though, and can't vouch for practicality.
  - palata 1y ago
    I think it needs to become "standard" on Android. Then developers will write apps for it, and I could imagine hotels offering "docking stations" (e.g. the TV with a keyboard/mouse). If it's only the Samsung thing, probably developers don't care? Also it feels like Google may make Workspace work on wide Android screens (for their XR stuff).
  - godelski 1y ago
    It was definitely a thing for awhile. IIRC Mozilla made a phone OS that could do this and I think Ubuntu too. I think those projects gave up too quickly. Sometimes things take time and idk why in CS we have to always be in a rush. If Goodyear, who's made tires for 100 years, can take 8 years to make a tire, I think we can take that time to make a new novel OS that has a phone mode and desktop mode. Certainly such a thing is going to take time for people to even wrap their heads around
pseudosavant 1y ago
The year of Linux already happened quite a while ago (check your router, Android phone, TV, or countless other smart devices). The year of desktop Linux on the other hand? It will never happen. It is a value like ∞ that you can never reach.
- singron 1y ago
  Linux marketshare is steadily increasing, especially among English speakers. It's complicated by how you want to count the Steam Deck, but the steam hardware survey has a clear upward trend: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/steam-tracker/ https://www.gamingonlinux.com/steam-tracker/ We could get to 30% in just 60 years!
  - godelski 1y ago
    > We could get to 30% in just 60 years! A linear fit is inappropriate in things like market share (has both upper and lower bound) or where momentum plays a significant role.
steamrolled 1y ago
> I wonder if 2025 will be the year of Linux. I know it's a running joke, but we had a decade (+) of Linux in many other consumer use cases, such as smartphones. The problem is that if you're selling a consumer computing platform, you're subject to the same exact incentives as Microsoft. You want to be Microsoft! You want their revenue, their profit margins, their nice offices, their talented engineers. Android is Linux, but your typical Android phone ships with invasive AI features, has a locked bootloader, a variety of components that collect data about you... and unless you jump through hoops, it only lets you install apps from the company store.
bongodongobob 1y ago
It will never be the year of Linux. That statement doesn't even mean anything. Businesses desktops run on Windows. Linux wont replace the ease in which MS allows you to manage thousands of people in the near future. There will be billions of Windows computers for the forseeable future because they can be managed easily by sysadmins with AD/M365. Out of curiosity, have you had any experience managing 100s or 1000s of users/workstations?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
cptskippy 1y ago
> Meanwhile the user experience of Linux has dramatically increased. Put on a good skin and most people wouldn't notice the difference. As someone who spends time using MacOS, Windows, and Linux ... even if you managed to make them look pixel perfect identical, everyone would notice something is off immediately. MacOS, Windows, and Linux desktop environments all feel distinctly different. MacOS feels like you're waist deep in the shallow end of the pool trying to run. You feel like you're being held back in terms of speed but never out of control. Window max/min is easy, want to resize a window? That'll be 5 minutes of your life you'll never get back. Windows is like an overeager dog, it's fast and nimble but don't blink or you'll loose your mouse cursor. Max/min/resize? Sure it's effortlessly easy right up until your mouse hits a zone and then it snaps the window exactly how you didn't want. Linux gives you the freedom to do whatever you want, and that's exactly what every single app developer has done with their app experience. Will a click of the scroll wheel move at light speed or a glacial crawl? You never know, but what you can count on is that it will be entirely different if you use a touch pad. Want to resize a window? The mouse cursor might change to the resize icon, but damned if it doesn't activate the window beneath when you try to click and drag.
justinator 1y ago
>Apple is too expensive M4 Minis are like, $500.
cookiengineer 1y ago
I just use Windows in a seamless VM with Office 2013. It's fun, every time somebody sends me an exploit or dropper I am eager to click on the attachments to find out how it works. And after seeing what it does I just reset the filesystem snapshots back to the lsst step. And for newbies to Linux I'd heavily recommend trying out KDE as a desktop environment. They're are really nicely integrated, even phone sync and other shenanigans work out of the box.

TacticalCoder 1y ago

[dead]

x0xrx 1y ago

Scammers successfully sell reskinned Android phones as iPhones to unsuspecting marks, I’m sure you’re right that many people wouldn’t notice.

andy_xor_andrew 1y ago

just saying, the comment you just wrote could have appeared, word for word, on any HN discussion in the last 20 years. The only words that would have to change are "PopOS" / "Arch" / "Manjaro" for more timely distros. (and Chrome didn't exist until ~2009)

fsflover 1y ago
This has been indeed more or less true for a long time, if you speak of preinstalled GNU/Linux, not using a "Windows-certified" hardware.
godelski 1y ago
I really don't think so. We didn't have GUI installers 20 years ago. I think you're undermining the advances linux has made. I think it is harder for us on the techy side to see but having been getting people to switch to linux over the last 10 years I can say that the last 5 have been significantly easier.
- vel0city 1y ago
  There were GUI installers for a few distros 19 years ago. I remember using a graphical installer for Ubuntu 6.06. But even then back in the day I remember Windows applications that would partition and install a Linux distro for dual boot from within Windows.
- okanat 1y ago
  We did have GUI installers in 2005. At least SUSE did. Linux hasn't made much significant changes to its core architecture. There are better implementations for many things like Pulseaudio and Pipewire or Wayland compositors are a bit more streamlined than X11. The core issues existed in 2005 still exist in exact form: how do you make money for the software devs on Linux, how to bring good closed-source software support for decades. If Linux cannot solve those two problems, it will not replace Windows. I think, without changing the software architecture to look more Windows-like, the latter problem cannot be feasibly solved.

Retr0id 1y ago

I'd like this to be true, but Windows has been getting incrementally more user-hostile for a long time now. I'm not sure this change is going to mark any particular tipping point.

matthewdgreen 1y ago
I just want to vent here about the recent experience I had buying and installing MS Office 365 for my wife’s small business. I had assumed since the competition is effortless and free, MS would at least make Office for Desktop relatively easy to pay for. Instead I got suckered into paying for “Basic”, which doesn’t support desktop apps. The “supports desktop apps” version costs more, but the big problem is it’s not explained within the apps what you need to upgrade to (there are many plans.) Then once you finally figure out how to upgrade, the subscription and payment sites repeatedly error out. Once you force through an immediate upgrade, it turns out that it’s not immediate and takes an hour to go through. This is mostly just venting, but if the “please take my money” pathways of MS’s most popular product work this badly, I don’t even want to think about ever going back to Windows.
- AnthonyMouse 1y ago
  What many have yet to notice is that Microsoft now makes more money from Cloud than they do from Windows, so the purpose of Windows is now as the funnel for Microsoft's cloud services. It's like using an operating system made by GoDaddy.
godelski 1y ago
I think it can be true, but we have to make it happen. One of the biggest problems I see is that we complain about things like Linux in these comparative settings, as if we don't have to make a choice. It's like saying you don't want to eat a cookie because the chef sneezed in it and instead giving you a cookie the chef took a shit in. Sure, I'd rather have neither, but if I have to eat a cookie I know which one I'd choose.
- Retr0id 1y ago

neogodless 1y ago

Average computer users could probably switch... but it would require one of two things: Some way to make it ridiculously low friction for existing hardware owners to get into Linux. Like, less friction than downloading an ISO, mounting it, and installing it on your computer. Or make computers come with it when people buy them. (This is still vanishingly rare.) ** As a power user... I still have a few issues, some that might be common, and some that might be quite rare/unique to me. For example, post-concussion I really can't stand low refresh rates, and screen brightness is important to me. During my last 2-month Linux experiment, I had issues with controlling those things which was a mix of hardware, drivers, Linux kernel, GPU modes, etc. These sort of issues seem to be less and less common in Linux, and I'm optimistic, but I also am hesitant to sacrifice my own health to make a switch away from Windows. (Mental health aside.) And some games still don't work right, at least not on launch. Which can make me sad as someone who plays games socially. As a photographer, I bought and use DxO PhotoLab. I've compared alternatives, and I like it much better. It doesn't mean I couldn't use darktable but I definitely don't like it anywhere near as much. (And no, DxO does not support Linux.)

twosdai 1y ago
System 76 makes a great product in this space honestly. I always recommend them to people who are interested in trying linux. They ship with linux pre-installed, its exactly like buying a dell with windows. https://system76.com/ https://system76.com/ I am not affliated with them, I am a customer and I like their products.
- nicholasjarnold 1y ago
  I concur. I own a System 76 laptop, and it runs PopOS. It's been stable for years (taking the regular updates). They make a variety of hardware products ranging from portable/lightweight laptop to beefy engineering workstation. (also not affiliated with them, just want to support good products/company)
- astrolx 1y ago
  This. I bought a System76 laptop in 2011 which is still working very well with lubuntu for office and browser and such, it's now the laptop of my neighbourhood association. I could without problem upgrade RAM and drive to SSD, I could even swap the keyboard after I broke it. I bought a new one from them this year, still incredible hardware. My only issue with them, which is a big one, is that they ship only from USA. So as EU customer I have to pay VAT on top!

WD-42 1y ago

The problem is, until laptops sold at Walmart or Best Buy start coming with Linux pre-installed as an option, adoption will never happen. Installing an aftermarket OS is just an incredibly unrealistic expectation from the average user. Microsoft knows this, and they will do everything they can to prevent OEMs from shipping anything other than Windows. Apple of course, forget it. Their profit comes from leeching off FOSS and selling it, they would never allow distribution of it directly.

CalRobert 1y ago
For what it's worth, it can almost be done (but is still a minority) https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/appref=ubuntu-linux-os https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/app...
fsflover 1y ago
Purism and System76 offer laptops with preinstalled GNU/Linux.
- throitallaway 1y ago
  Lenovo currently offers Linux (Ubuntu) as an option Thinkpads. Dell used to once upon a time; I don't know if they still do.
  - lupusreal 1y ago
    Dell still does. https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/appref=ubuntu-linux-os https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/scr/laptops/app...
- WD-42 1y ago
  Yes and they are great. But you have to already know they exist and seek them out.
  - mingus88 1y ago

enfuse 1y ago

> or if you want to say you use Arch then try Manjaro EndeavourOS preferred over Manjaro.

jamespo 1y ago
EndeavourOS with the niri window manager is a wonderful experience
godelski 1y ago
You're right. Not sure why I didn't say that. I updated:)

MeruMeru 1y ago

I am definitely moving to Linux this year. I'm a not a developer, but I am willing to tackle the learning curve. I have been a Windows user from my very first computer, my first internship was at Microsoft. But I am done with the directions they have taken these past years!

WD-42 1y ago
Enjoy! Keep an open mind and you'll discover computing can still be very fun!
godelski 1y ago
Awesome! Great to hear! There definitely can be some hurdles depending on what your goals are. If you're mainly browser user, don't stress. If gamer, go PopOS (if want to be a bit more, EndeavourOS is a good recommend). If you do want to learn linux, then I actually suggest doing things "the hard way". That is installing Arch (fastest newbie I've seen is install on the 4th attempt) and try living in the terminal. The failures lead to a lot of learning. But it is a good way to learn because it forces you to get your hands dirty and makes you quick to not be afraid because well... you will have already experienced fucking up and it is less scary once you have haha. It's one of those things where you don't feel like you're making progress but boy do you learn fast this way. But this of course is not what everyone should do! I just wanted to offer the advice in case you or anyone does. I am being serious about it being the hard way. But it pays off.

immibis 1y ago

Linux still suffers the same flaw as always, though: it's just bad. And the projects that claim to make it better end up being a lot like Microsoft or Apple. You or I can use Linux, because we're the same type of people who visit Hacker News. It's also completely possible to get your great-grandma on Linux, since the web browsers work the same and you can install the specific apps they need to use and they'll never care about anything else. But the middle user is working in an office exchanging Microsoft Office documents all day, making video calls through Teams, and using one out of a zillion business apps developed specifically for Windows. We need more free and good projects, and the problem is, that costs time, and in between Richard Stallman's heyday and now, the rent's quadrupled.

astrolx 1y ago
I'd like to see stats about that middle user though, I would think that this usecase decreases fast as things are moving to the browser (Office366, Drive, mail, even corporate apps). Other types of usecases have gone very Linux-friendly recently (e.g video games thanks to Valve).
palata 1y ago
> Linux still suffers the same flaw as always, though: it's just bad. It's not bad for me. "Bad" is subjective. Sure, it's not a good fit for "normal people". But as long as it's not targetting "normal people", I don't see how this is a problem.

School-Cotton 1y ago

Average people nowadays don't really use general-purpose computers at home. They use whatever their work provides at the office (which will continue to be Windows for most people and macOS for prestigious or highly-paid jobs), and use phones at home.

numpad0 1y ago

> Put on a good skin and most people wouldn't notice the difference. I doubt it. Common people can't interpret GUI and discover features unlike developers who'd prefer dynamic "intuitive" interfaces. They rely more on dumb fixed rote memorization. Most recent example of failure of this approach is Windows Settings app. Not only a lot of configuration panes started to mimic old Control Panel in both features layouts, even verbiages, many had become a mere shortcut links to old Control Panel applets.

godelski 1y ago
To be fair, I can't figure out how to use OSX. I'm constantly going down the wrong menu paths. Same when someone asks me to use Windows, and in a completely different manner. My point is that it's not like there's an objectively good way to do this. That people just get used to doing things one way or another. And frankly, with Linux you can copy those same structures and that's what I mean by "skin". You really can make it feel a lot like Windows or OSX and that really reduces the dissonance.
- numpad0 1y ago
  So it's not from skin and down, but from metal up to the skin, or the kernel and userland. It'll have to be ReactOS approach that don't necessarily have the exact Windows 11 theme.

noman-land 1y ago

Here's one data point. My grandmother and mother now both use Raspberry Pis as their primary computers and are 100% satisfied. My father is looking to switch as well and he's been setting up a GrapheneOS phone I made for him which runs flawlessly. If year of Linux doesn't arrive by choice, authoritarianism will force the issue one way or another.

mikepurvis 1y ago
My kids have an old Thinkpad T440p that's their Scratch/Roblox/Minecraft machine, and overall it works well enough running Ubuntu (originally 22.04, then 24.04, now 25.04). But it has been far from seamless: - the built in bluetooth and wifi can't be used at the same time; for a while we mitigated this with a USB wifi module, but that eventually broke and so now bluetooth is just disabled. - it's hard to figure out what apps and app data are shared between users. AFAICT there's one Steam install my kids are sharing, but each one installs their own copy of a game, which is terrible for disk usage. - a bunch of games don't work, especially from non-steam sources like Epic and Itch.io. I've heard about the Heroic Launcher, and I will try it at some point, but it's just... one more fiddly thing to have to mess with. - several Minecraft launchers / mod-managers have been tried, but I can't seem to keep my Microsoft account logged in on there, so I eventually just put my password on a sticky note so they could re-auth it whenever needed (fortunately I don't use it for anything else). - unattended-upgrades pulled a new kernel and the thing just panicked on startup until I went into the grub menu to get the previous one and reverted. - until 25.04 the power management story was terrible, the machine would chew through the whole (newly replaced) battery in less than an hour. As a competent nerd I've been ~fine with all this, but it's honestly right on the edge of acceptable. I expect a normal person would immediately give up in the face of most of these— either give up in terms of ditching the machine/OS or give up as in accepting a limitation like it just doesn't play that game or I just can't use my earbuds.
- test1235 1y ago
  This is a perspective I'd like to hear more often. Too often I hear all these supposed ideal solutions without mentioning the pitfalls of having to support a non-technical family. Pi hole is a good example. Do all websites (and other services) still work perfectly but without ads, or am I going to have to endure sighing and eyerolling everytime someone asks me why their site isn't loading (again)?

nickthegreek 1y ago

>Windows has turned itself into spyware. Apple is too expensive and going the same way. There is nothing too expensive about an M series mac mini.

godelski 1y ago
They're great little computers but you're kidding if you think $400 to upgrade to 1Tb (from 256G) is not priced. I can get 2Tb of gen 5 NVMe for under $300. Same issue with RAM, but at least at 16Gb most people don't need to upgrade. Come on. You can still think they're great while admitting they're over priced. Those aren't in contention.
- lurking_swe 1y ago
  your typical casual user needs 2TB of local storage (outside the cloud)? that’s news to me. I agree it’s overpriced, and it bugs me too. But i still recommend mac’s to my less tech savvy family and friends. Why? I’m not interested in being their tech support, and also, it’s trivial to buy a portable 2TB thunderbolt 4 SSD for $200-$300, if the need arises in the future. In fact an external SSD is even easier to replace/upgrade than an internal ssd (generally speaking). i think we’re losing sight of the topic here. CASUAL USERS :)
  - godelski 1y ago
    > your typical casual user needs 2TB of local storage (outside the cloud)? that’s news to me. That is *NOT* what I said... and you know it... I don't believe 256GB is sufficient for the typical casual user. Apple knows it too. But $200 to upgrade FROM 256GB TO 512GB is, as you asked "too expensive". It is "too expensive" BECAUSE comparable off-the-shelf hardware is significantly less AND has better performance. We're also talking about a level of performance most people will not notice the difference between. I cannot find a 512GB NVMe drive that is PCIe 5.0, but here is a 1Tb one that costs $170[0]. They key point here being that you get twice the storage for 85% the price OF UPGRADING. That drive suggests it gets 14.7GBps reads and 13.3GBps writes while this Reddit user shows their Mac Mini M4 gets UNDER 3GBps for both read and write[1]. It definitely would go higher with the 512 variant because those disks are suffering from the same issue that the M2 Air suffered from... but that doesn't change the price that you pay more for less. You pay more for SIGNIFICANTLY less. > I think we’re losing sight of the topic here. CASUAL USERS :) It wasn't me... The question wasn't what you'd recommend to your less tech savvy friends and family, the question was if something was over priced. P.S. iPhones won't capitalize a singular "i", as would be the proper grammatical usage. P.S.S. External drives aren't just annoying, they're slower too. [0] https://www.newegg.com/samsung-1tb-9100-pro-nvme-2-0/p/N82E16820147902 https://www.newegg.com/samsung-1tb-9100-pro-nvme-2-0/p/N82E1... [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/macmini/comments/1gmxrzc/base_m4_mac_mini_256gb_ssd_benchmarks/ https://www.reddit.com/r/macmini/comments/1gmxrzc/base_m4_ma...

mingus88 1y ago

You will need to cite your sources that Apple is going the same way. From what I see, Apple has launched private cloud compute with better privacy safeguards than any other big tech firm. In fact, their personal assistant is the worst one because it is so dumb. They don’t seem to make money from your data because, as you say, they have already made huge margins on hardware and apps.

fsflover 1y ago
> You will need to cite your sources that Apple is going the same way. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43047952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43047952 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43003230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43003230 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42014588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42014588 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34299433 https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/04/10/apple-makes-it-really-hard-for-users-to-completely-stop-it-from-collecting-data https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/04/10/apple-makes-it-re... https://sneak.berlin/20231005/apple-operating-system-surveillance/ https://sneak.berlin/20231005/apple-operating-system-surveil... > They don’t seem to make money from your data It's changing: https://www.macrumors.com/2024/11/19/apple-now-directly-selling-ads-in-news-app/ https://www.macrumors.com/2024/11/19/apple-now-directly-sell... And finally: Apple's Software Quality Crisis (eliseomartelli.it) 1196 points by ajdude 79 days ago | 1213 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43243075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43243075
- fsflover 1y ago
  Why quiet downvotes? My links demonstrate that Apple is collecting a lot of data, not giving an easy choice for the opt-out and starting to use that for ads. Also the software is getting worse.
  - godelski 1y ago
    Heated topic. Don't let it get to you. People like having tribes. (I'm definitely in a tribe too. But I hope my comments here, and elsewhere, show that I'm more than willing to criticize the tribes I affiliate with)

presbyterian 1y ago

> Apple is too expensive Is it? You can get an M1 MacBook Air at Walmart for $699 now. That's more than many of the bottom-of-the-barrel Windows machines out there, but it's not an unreasonable price at all. It'll keep away the lowest-end users, but most of those users 1) are not going to care about the security issues, because they don't know anything about computers beyond base utility, and 2) have mostly switched to doing everything on their phone/tablet, and aren't as big of the computer demographic these days anyway.

Almondsetat 1y ago
$699 for a computer that will stop getting updates in just a few years
- copperx 1y ago
  That's about 6 years. Plenty enough for a laptop that's not upgradeable.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- kevin_thibedeau 1y ago
  For some perspective: Computer Shopper 1993 GW2K 386SX at $1300. Today that is $2800. That $699 Mac is getting you a machine that would have been a TOP500 supercomputer in the 90s.
  - throitallaway 1y ago
    If my Grandmother had wheels she would have been a bike. Yes, things change over time. I cringe to think of what some of the original 42" flat screen displays cost relative to the huge (much better looking) OLED panels of today.
  - lxgr 1y ago
    And your credit card has a more powerful computer than the Apollo lunar lander. But software development (for both OS and applications) is continuing in parallel with hardware improvements, so there's a strong implicit demand of you to also continue upgrading, at least if you need to interoperate with any other computer in the world.

wyager 1y ago

> Apple is too expensive On literally what metric? Even if you do the most naive comparison of compute and storage, Apple now comes out ahead much of the time, to say nothing of differences around quality, display, controls, etc.

MisterBastahrd 1y ago
On the metric that people see PCs as disposable appliances and don't consider a small format box like a Mac Mini to be a real computing device. They don't give a crap about "compute," they care if they can open their web browser, outlook, and play their little slot machine game. You're not gonna get Meemaw who spent her entire career as a secretary working with Windows machines to go to Mac just because you like the specs. Hell, my mom has owned the same PC for 15 years now and I can't get her to move away from THAT.
fsflover 1y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44055640 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44055640

anal_reactor 1y ago

I cannot recommend Linux to my parents simply because they're too attached to MS Office. Anyway, I wonder to what distribution should I switch to.

throitallaway 1y ago
Do they use MS Office for work, or just simple hobby stuff? If it's work stuff - leave them alone. For hobby stuff LibreOffice is a good replacement that you can trial on Windows. As far as distros go, I don't like some of the decisions that Canonical has made with Ubuntu, but it's hard to argue with how simple, reliable, and complete it is. I don't want to run it for myself, but it's great for some people.

oweiler 1y ago

I have read almost the same thing 5yrs ago. And 5yrs before that. And so on.

Klonoar 1y ago
I remember posting basically their comment on /. something like 20 years ago.
godelski 1y ago
Same about AI Could have happened 5 years ago. Could have happened 5 years before that. But it won't ever happen if the techy people that have the capabilities of making it happen are too busy self-righteously laughing about how it hasn't happened yet. Luckily that doesn't stop progress, but it sure doesn't let it get to the speed it could. Meanwhile, I hope you're happy with the state of things. You have every right to point and laugh if you are happy with the direction Microsoft, Apple, and Google have led us. But if you aren't, it isn't too late to make efforts to change those directions. If we're going to reference the past, let's not hyper-fixate on every failed "call to arms" while ignoring how future they were trying to fight actually happened...

amatecha 1y ago

A couple years ago was "the year of" open source OSes for me. I only have one remaining machine running Windows, and it just sits there doing nothing because I don't actually use it anymore. Same with my one remaining Apple machine. Well, I mean I have a couple retro machines that aren't in everyday use of course. Everything else is running Linux or BSD.

jimbob45 1y ago

Apple is too expensive and going the same way. Apple would have had near 100% OS market share if they’d have tossed their hardware restrictions.

lxgr 1y ago

The time of Linux on the desktop is now, but the era of desktops itself has passed.

bluebarbet 1y ago
This is the crucial point that makes the whole question somewhat moot. Only one other of the 20-odd peers in this thread acknowledges it. Once again I'm disappointed by how out of touch the techies here seem to be.

dokyun 1y ago

> Windows has turned itself into spyware Has?

chronid 1y ago

I have plenty of hard disagreements on the "user experience improvements" in Linux. "Adding a skin" is not easy and making the experience somewhat coherent is extremely hard (GNOME is sort of successful at an extreme cost and plenty of limitations, KDE is still an incoherent mess with plenty of bad defaults starting from the base CDDM skin). It's full of things like the missing icon view in the GNOME/GTK file chooser [1] and while it's true that Windows11 is atrocious, all those little things add up. I actually recovered a laptop my family was using to launch firefox by installing linux on it (soldered ram went bad, linux is the only OS I could use to tell it to skip the bad blocks through kernel command line) but I hold no illusion about its level of "user experience". Just look at the comments in this recent thread [2]. And as a power user I am baffled by some of the choices at the kernel level (which I mentioned in that thread) and others closer to the user by distros (ubuntu and snaps, name an iconic duo), or things like flatpak not being close to ready and still shoved down user's throats... I spent years when I was younger submitting bug reports for the papercuts I noticed - some ignored for years, some closed and forgotten forever when some project decided to move on from bugzilla - and I have no more time or energy to continue doing so. The maintainers after all write the code, I'm just a user and get no voice :) I've been reading about the "year of linux" for years now, it's a meme for a reason. People that are not "prosumer" will keep using the preinstalled OS even if it's garbage - assuming they buy a laptop or desktop at all - and the prosumer will probably keep an OSX or a Windows machine close by anyway. Linux is usable as a browser kiosk sure but there is still plenty of friction on everything else. Enshittification will continue, and possibly infect also linux. [1] https://www.omglinux.com/gnome-thumbnails-file-picker/ https://www.omglinux.com/gnome-thumbnails-file-picker/ [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43945373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43945373

godelski 1y ago
> "Adding a skin" is not easy and making the experience somewhat coherent is extremely hard I don't mean to imply this is easy. But I also do know that these efforts have been in the works for quite some time. They can get more dedication if that's the direction we need to go. Quick Google - 3 free Linux distros that look and feel like Windows: https://www.pcworld.com/article/2532994/3-free-linux-distros-that-look-and-feel-like-windows.html - 5 Linux Distributions That are Inspired by the Look and Feel of macOS: https://itsfoss.com/macos-like-linux-distros/ > soldered ram went bad, linux is the only OS I could use to tell it to skip the bad blocks through kernel command line IDK how to tell you this, but for 90% of people this is "throw the machine out, buy a new one." I'm really not sure what the critique is here. Even if running with more problems seems unsurprising given what you described. And you're talking about the kernel. I don't deny that there are problems with Linux, nor that things need to improve to get better mass appeal. But I do think you should look at your own words. They're highly technical. And we should not forget how this would compare when discussing Windows or OSX. That's the choice! It's that these conversations of "Linux sucks" are not just complaints about Linux, they are also suggestions of using Windows or OSX. The context of our conversation is about choosing between these systems, not the existence of problems. I want to be very clear Linux is a dumpster fire. This does not mean Windows isn't! This does not mean OSX isn't! The argument I'm making is that this doesn't matter for the general user. Fuck, it generally doesn't matter for the technical user. But there is a good reason why technical/power users have a strong bias towards using Linux. Because at least it is a dumpster fire they can fix. It is absurd to have the framing that we should not encourage people to use Linux in favor of them using systems that are user hostile and destroying all sense of personal privacy! These arguments become equivalent to: "You don't want to eat that, the chef sneezed in it. Here, eat this cake instead. The chef only took a shit in it." Idk about you, but give the choice, I'd rather take the sneeze than the shit. I'd (strongly) prefer neither, but frankly that isn't an option now, is it? And let's be honest, if you want to get more resources to put out more fires, the only way that's going to happen is if there are more users.

sapphicsnail 1y ago

Has anyone had success setting up a Linux machine and handing it off to a less tech savvy friend? I've had some people asking about it but I have techie brain and I don't know what's usable to normal people.

fsflover 1y ago
Debian with Xfce has been flawless for my non-tech-savy relatives for years.
encom 1y ago
One data point: I installed Fedora on my moms machine. She hasn't even mentioned it. She just clicks the Chrome icon.
__aru 1y ago
Depends on how the user uses their computer. Web browser + maybe some printing? Throw on Linux Mint + Firefox + uBlock origin, hook up a compatible printer via usb cable, and call it a day. That's what I did for my 65 year old relatives, and it's been maintenance free.

acaloiar 1y ago

I love linux. It's been my primary OS nearly my whole life. It's not the year of linux.

TimTheTinker 1y ago

> Would be a huge win for open source! Just keep in mind that widespread Linux adoption means it will lose something special it has had from being relatively small on the desktop. This would be another Eternal September ... including a massive influx of entitled users and all that. Because of that effect, I think there needs to be one or more for-profit Linux OS vendors prepared to absorb all the support and feedback needs (and contribute upstream, of course), and OEMs should only use it/them for anyone besides "advanced users and developers" or similar verbage. SteamOS maybe?

nan60 1y ago
I've never understood why Red Hat never tried breaking into this space. People clearly don't mind paying for an OS and RHEL is pretty much as polished and well supported as you can get. A fork of RHEL geared towards home use would be fantastic. I know Fedora exists but it isn't backed by RH the way RHEL is.
- nemomarx 1y ago
  Getting people to pay for an OS when the mainstream alternatives come bundled with hardware seems like a big lift. If they could work with system 76 or something maybe yeah
- 360MustangScope 1y ago
  Just like other companies, home users do not make much money compared to enterprises. No home user will pay $10,000 annually for example and think nothing of it. Enterprises is where the money is, that is also why a company like Cisco do not make consumer devices
- em-bee 1y ago
  they were. before RHEL, red hat linux was sold as desktop operating system to consumers. as was SUSE and a few others.
  - nan60 1y ago
    Ah, I didn't actually know this! I wasn't around for the early days of Linux so I don't know much about it.

Tistron 1y ago

Has anyone else managed to make a trackpad that is even close to as good as what apple makes? I've never tried a non-apple trackpad that didn't suck.

palata 1y ago

> Would be a huge win for open source! Not sure. I don't want people who want Windows to come to Linux because Windows has become a spyware. The result will be a bunch of entitled users asking for Linux to look more like Windows. Anyone who has maintained an open source project knows how consumers of open source suck. "Your free project that you develop in your free time sucks" or "I won't make you the honour to use your project if you don't spend 2 weeks adding this feature I want". A mass influx of Windows people who want Windows-without-the-spyware would probably make this worse for Linux.

ajsnigrutin 1y ago
getting windows users to linux is a pain.... "I want BSplayer, how do I make it work?", and no other player will ever be good enough as BSplayer. And sometimes it's not even a good piece of software, but some stupid windows only thing that not even windows users use anymore.

asadm 1y ago

Apple is expensive? I can get an refurb M1 for $400, which is still worthy (I use it for my main dev work, docker, cmake, qemu, nodejs and all)

bigfatkitten 1y ago
Still blows the doors off a good many x86 machines you can buy new today, with twice the battery life.

palata 1y ago

I feel like we are getting closer to the year of convergence... but with Android. Google is apparently working on it. Many of my friends don't even have a computer: they do everything on their phone. If they could plug their phone to a dock station for the few times they need a keyboard and a bigger screen, they would be fine.

shmeeed 1y ago
>If they could plug their phone to a dock station for the few times they need a keyboard and a bigger screen, they would be fine. Samsung DeX does this, and I think similar solutions or workarounds are available for other manufacturers via USB-DP Alt Mode and BT for input devices. I don't know anyone who uses it, though, and can't vouch for practicality.
- palata 1y ago
  I think it needs to become "standard" on Android. Then developers will write apps for it, and I could imagine hotels offering "docking stations" (e.g. the TV with a keyboard/mouse). If it's only the Samsung thing, probably developers don't care? Also it feels like Google may make Workspace work on wide Android screens (for their XR stuff).
- godelski 1y ago
  It was definitely a thing for awhile. IIRC Mozilla made a phone OS that could do this and I think Ubuntu too. I think those projects gave up too quickly. Sometimes things take time and idk why in CS we have to always be in a rush. If Goodyear, who's made tires for 100 years, can take 8 years to make a tire, I think we can take that time to make a new novel OS that has a phone mode and desktop mode. Certainly such a thing is going to take time for people to even wrap their heads around

pseudosavant 1y ago

The year of Linux already happened quite a while ago (check your router, Android phone, TV, or countless other smart devices). The year of desktop Linux on the other hand? It will never happen. It is a value like ∞ that you can never reach.

singron 1y ago
Linux marketshare is steadily increasing, especially among English speakers. It's complicated by how you want to count the Steam Deck, but the steam hardware survey has a clear upward trend: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/steam-tracker/ https://www.gamingonlinux.com/steam-tracker/ We could get to 30% in just 60 years!
- godelski 1y ago
  > We could get to 30% in just 60 years! A linear fit is inappropriate in things like market share (has both upper and lower bound) or where momentum plays a significant role.

steamrolled 1y ago

> I wonder if 2025 will be the year of Linux. I know it's a running joke, but we had a decade (+) of Linux in many other consumer use cases, such as smartphones. The problem is that if you're selling a consumer computing platform, you're subject to the same exact incentives as Microsoft. You want to be Microsoft! You want their revenue, their profit margins, their nice offices, their talented engineers. Android is Linux, but your typical Android phone ships with invasive AI features, has a locked bootloader, a variety of components that collect data about you... and unless you jump through hoops, it only lets you install apps from the company store.

bongodongobob 1y ago

It will never be the year of Linux. That statement doesn't even mean anything. Businesses desktops run on Windows. Linux wont replace the ease in which MS allows you to manage thousands of people in the near future. There will be billions of Windows computers for the forseeable future because they can be managed easily by sysadmins with AD/M365. Out of curiosity, have you had any experience managing 100s or 1000s of users/workstations?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

cptskippy 1y ago

> Meanwhile the user experience of Linux has dramatically increased. Put on a good skin and most people wouldn't notice the difference. As someone who spends time using MacOS, Windows, and Linux ... even if you managed to make them look pixel perfect identical, everyone would notice something is off immediately. MacOS, Windows, and Linux desktop environments all feel distinctly different. MacOS feels like you're waist deep in the shallow end of the pool trying to run. You feel like you're being held back in terms of speed but never out of control. Window max/min is easy, want to resize a window? That'll be 5 minutes of your life you'll never get back. Windows is like an overeager dog, it's fast and nimble but don't blink or you'll loose your mouse cursor. Max/min/resize? Sure it's effortlessly easy right up until your mouse hits a zone and then it snaps the window exactly how you didn't want. Linux gives you the freedom to do whatever you want, and that's exactly what every single app developer has done with their app experience. Will a click of the scroll wheel move at light speed or a glacial crawl? You never know, but what you can count on is that it will be entirely different if you use a touch pad. Want to resize a window? The mouse cursor might change to the resize icon, but damned if it doesn't activate the window beneath when you try to click and drag.

justinator 1y ago

>Apple is too expensive M4 Minis are like, $500.

cookiengineer 1y ago

I just use Windows in a seamless VM with Office 2013. It's fun, every time somebody sends me an exploit or dropper I am eager to click on the attachments to find out how it works. And after seeing what it does I just reset the filesystem snapshots back to the lsst step. And for newbies to Linux I'd heavily recommend trying out KDE as a desktop environment. They're are really nicely integrated, even phone sync and other shenanigans work out of the box.