4 ms·

This guy is just rambling about CL and writing about his inability. I never had problems with SBCL on any machine, runs on my VPS, with threading, like a charm.

by mcxx 18y ago

This guy is just rambling about CL and writing about his inability. I never had problems with SBCL on any machine, runs on my VPS, with threading, like a charm. Also, noone forced him to learn and use Emacs. There are Vim modes or CUPS for Eclipse. Destructive functions are the language's feature. If not sure, just use non-destructive. It's also not CL's fault he doesn't understand macros and can't use CL-WHO. I like Clojure, but I like CL better. One guy's incompetence learning CL doesn't mean Clojure wins.

jimbokun 18y ago
"I never had problems with SBCL on any machine" I did, and so did this author. So who's anecdote wins?
- mcxx 18y ago
  Noone's. The point is it's not a valid argument. The sameway the author had problems deploying SBCL on his machine, I could have problems deploying JVM on mine.
  - icey 18y ago
    I'm going to have to disagree with you here. You rarely hear about people having issues getting the JVM set up on a random machine. On the other hand, deployment of SBCL is a complaint you hear somewhat regularly from people using shared hosting. It's not necessarily a fault of SBCL, as much as it is a function of Java's popularity. But to say they equally share deployment problems seems a bit misguided to me.
    - mcxx 18y ago
      Yeah, you are probably right. Because of Java's popularity and high demand, hosting providers have to be Java-ready and nowadays, it's not a problem. However, it seems I've been living in a cave. Besides the Reddit case, I haven't heard (or at least can't remember) about problems running a CL environment. Can people who had this problem please reply - what disto, what implementation, what was the issue?
      - jimbokun 18y ago
        My experience trying to move some code from SBCL/OS X to a particular version of Linux is partially documented here. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/0450136edf92ba45 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/0450136edf... The use case was a final class project, where the instructor needed to be able to run the final version of the program just by executing a script in an unpacked tar file. Couldn't get SBCL to run with the limited time I spent on it. Got CMUCL to run, but not in a way that could be deployed in a self installing manner. Punted and used Java (was easier to work with team members that way, too). Clojure would have been perfect.
    - narag 18y ago
      I've had a lot of issues with JVM in a cheap hosting with Virtuozzo (a VPS). I assume people that are using Java choose a provider that gives it preinstalled.
- habibur 18y ago
  Reddit was initially built on CMUCL on FreeBSD. Here is what Steve Huffman said on why they switched to python one weekend. "The biggest trouble that plagued us was that we could never quite get Lisp reddit stable enough to sleep at night. There were weird threading issues that would bring the site to its knees a couple times a day and required constant monitoring." You can read more of it in this blog entry. http://www.findinglisp.com/blog/2005/12/reddit-and-lisp-psychosis.html http://www.findinglisp.com/blog/2005/12/reddit-and-lisp-psyc... Edit: Corrected :-)
  - jesnell 18y ago
    Reddit wasn't built on SBCL, which you would know if you had read the blog entry you linked to.
    - critic 18y ago
      I used CMUCL a bit, and SBCL almost never. Does SBCL really deliver on what it set out to do? Is it better, faster, more portable? As far as I know, the Windows port never matured. Which of the two do people recommend using?
      - jesnell 18y ago
        SBCL set out to make a version of CMUCL that was easier to build and maintain. I'm pretty sure that was delivered. But of course that's not of much interest to the average user. I think SBCL is in general faster, is developed more actively, has more features that are relevant in the modern world (eg. lose a Motif interface, gain native threads), and currently runs on more platforms than CMUCL does. My impression is that most people using CMUCL are ones who started using it 10 years ago and are comfortable with it, new users would tend to go with SBCL. But I'm biased, so it's quite possible that there are real and substantial reasons to prefer CMUCL.
      - narag 18y ago
        _...the Windows port never matured_ I was subscribed to SBCL list some months ago. I could see that Windows port was quickly progressing. "Never matured" suggest a project that was tried and later abandoned. It seems more of an ongoing effort. Versions are still being created regularly. I would try in a few months.
- Zak 18y ago
  As did I. In my case, the problem was running it on a VPS that had no user-visible swap, no way to add swap space and possibly some other memory-related oddities that I don't remember. The workaround ended up being to limit SBCL's memory usage with --dynamic-space-size.
fab13n 18y ago
This attitude ("It's good enough for me, I don't care anymore about the learning curve's steepness, and I'm indifferent/enthused that my language is only accessible to a tiny minority") captures the CL spirit quite well. It also explains why you have to do so much wheel reinvention when you code in CL: those lower lifeform coders, who you openly despise, produce working, ready-to-use libs for most common tasks on JVM, not for CL dialects. Up to you to reimplement your superior libs in your superior language for your superior self. CL is the perfect language for those who consider that development is not a social activity, and luckily for you, there are a couple of niches where this remains a sustainable delusion. For now. Meanwhile, Clojure carries on the Lisp heritage in the branch of software development that's not going to get extinct soon.
- mcxx 18y ago
  I don't have that attitude and I'm sorry if you encountered it (it's true the Lisp community could be friendlier, warmer to newcomers). However, what can a I (or any other Lisp programmer for that matter) do about the steep learning cure you mention? You have to try for yourself to learn the language, noone's going to do it for you.
  - Retric 18y ago
    what can a I Create a simple working installer for the major OS's that includes a useful IDE, Database connectivity to least one major database and a fully functional web server. Once this is working get some people to write a standard library for date / time functions, file IO, formatting output etc. Never underestimate how difficult it is for a new user to setup a working environment.
    - mcxx 18y ago
      The closest thing at the moment would probably be Lispbox (http://gigamonkeys.com/book/lispbox/ http://gigamonkeys.com/book/lispbox/) altough it's a bit outdated, so you'd be better with directly downloading SBCL (http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html). Use cl-build (http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/) for to ease library download. and install. I guess it's too complicated for a newcomer, but there's no easier way atm, sorry.
DTrejo 18y ago
For anyone interested in the Eclipse plugin, it is CUSP: http://www.bitfauna.com/projects/cusp/ http://www.bitfauna.com/projects/cusp/

by mcxx 18y ago

jimbokun 18y ago

"I never had problems with SBCL on any machine" I did, and so did this author. So who's anecdote wins?

mcxx 18y ago
Noone's. The point is it's not a valid argument. The sameway the author had problems deploying SBCL on his machine, I could have problems deploying JVM on mine.
- icey 18y ago
  I'm going to have to disagree with you here. You rarely hear about people having issues getting the JVM set up on a random machine. On the other hand, deployment of SBCL is a complaint you hear somewhat regularly from people using shared hosting. It's not necessarily a fault of SBCL, as much as it is a function of Java's popularity. But to say they equally share deployment problems seems a bit misguided to me.
  - mcxx 18y ago
    Yeah, you are probably right. Because of Java's popularity and high demand, hosting providers have to be Java-ready and nowadays, it's not a problem. However, it seems I've been living in a cave. Besides the Reddit case, I haven't heard (or at least can't remember) about problems running a CL environment. Can people who had this problem please reply - what disto, what implementation, what was the issue?
    - jimbokun 18y ago
      My experience trying to move some code from SBCL/OS X to a particular version of Linux is partially documented here. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/0450136edf92ba45 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/0450136edf... The use case was a final class project, where the instructor needed to be able to run the final version of the program just by executing a script in an unpacked tar file. Couldn't get SBCL to run with the limited time I spent on it. Got CMUCL to run, but not in a way that could be deployed in a self installing manner. Punted and used Java (was easier to work with team members that way, too). Clojure would have been perfect.
  - narag 18y ago
    I've had a lot of issues with JVM in a cheap hosting with Virtuozzo (a VPS). I assume people that are using Java choose a provider that gives it preinstalled.
habibur 18y ago
Reddit was initially built on CMUCL on FreeBSD. Here is what Steve Huffman said on why they switched to python one weekend. "The biggest trouble that plagued us was that we could never quite get Lisp reddit stable enough to sleep at night. There were weird threading issues that would bring the site to its knees a couple times a day and required constant monitoring." You can read more of it in this blog entry. http://www.findinglisp.com/blog/2005/12/reddit-and-lisp-psychosis.html http://www.findinglisp.com/blog/2005/12/reddit-and-lisp-psyc... Edit: Corrected :-)
- jesnell 18y ago
  Reddit wasn't built on SBCL, which you would know if you had read the blog entry you linked to.
  - critic 18y ago
    I used CMUCL a bit, and SBCL almost never. Does SBCL really deliver on what it set out to do? Is it better, faster, more portable? As far as I know, the Windows port never matured. Which of the two do people recommend using?
    - jesnell 18y ago
      SBCL set out to make a version of CMUCL that was easier to build and maintain. I'm pretty sure that was delivered. But of course that's not of much interest to the average user. I think SBCL is in general faster, is developed more actively, has more features that are relevant in the modern world (eg. lose a Motif interface, gain native threads), and currently runs on more platforms than CMUCL does. My impression is that most people using CMUCL are ones who started using it 10 years ago and are comfortable with it, new users would tend to go with SBCL. But I'm biased, so it's quite possible that there are real and substantial reasons to prefer CMUCL.
    - narag 18y ago
      _...the Windows port never matured_ I was subscribed to SBCL list some months ago. I could see that Windows port was quickly progressing. "Never matured" suggest a project that was tried and later abandoned. It seems more of an ongoing effort. Versions are still being created regularly. I would try in a few months.
Zak 18y ago
As did I. In my case, the problem was running it on a VPS that had no user-visible swap, no way to add swap space and possibly some other memory-related oddities that I don't remember. The workaround ended up being to limit SBCL's memory usage with --dynamic-space-size.

fab13n 18y ago

This attitude ("It's good enough for me, I don't care anymore about the learning curve's steepness, and I'm indifferent/enthused that my language is only accessible to a tiny minority") captures the CL spirit quite well. It also explains why you have to do so much wheel reinvention when you code in CL: those lower lifeform coders, who you openly despise, produce working, ready-to-use libs for most common tasks on JVM, not for CL dialects. Up to you to reimplement your superior libs in your superior language for your superior self. CL is the perfect language for those who consider that development is not a social activity, and luckily for you, there are a couple of niches where this remains a sustainable delusion. For now. Meanwhile, Clojure carries on the Lisp heritage in the branch of software development that's not going to get extinct soon.

mcxx 18y ago
I don't have that attitude and I'm sorry if you encountered it (it's true the Lisp community could be friendlier, warmer to newcomers). However, what can a I (or any other Lisp programmer for that matter) do about the steep learning cure you mention? You have to try for yourself to learn the language, noone's going to do it for you.
- Retric 18y ago
  what can a I Create a simple working installer for the major OS's that includes a useful IDE, Database connectivity to least one major database and a fully functional web server. Once this is working get some people to write a standard library for date / time functions, file IO, formatting output etc. Never underestimate how difficult it is for a new user to setup a working environment.
  - mcxx 18y ago
    The closest thing at the moment would probably be Lispbox (http://gigamonkeys.com/book/lispbox/ http://gigamonkeys.com/book/lispbox/) altough it's a bit outdated, so you'd be better with directly downloading SBCL (http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html). Use cl-build (http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/) for to ease library download. and install. I guess it's too complicated for a newcomer, but there's no easier way atm, sorry.

DTrejo 18y ago

For anyone interested in the Eclipse plugin, it is CUSP: http://www.bitfauna.com/projects/cusp/ http://www.bitfauna.com/projects/cusp/